More proof that Republican doublesppek and scaremongering is, unfortunately, successful.

But a further look into recruitment goals show that the bar and the standards have been lowered to meet these "goals."

Well if you make a first down only five yards instead of ten....

Wade

I notice you cherry picked the good parts out of the article, conveniently neglecting to include this part:

"Nonetheless, eight months into its budget year the active Army is barely beyond the halfway mark of recruiting its goal of 80,000 new soldiers. Through May it had signed up 42,859 recruits, meaning that in the final four months of the period it will have to enlist an average of close to 9,300 per month to reach 80,000.

Last year the only month the active Army came close to signing up 9,300 in a single month was August, when it got 9,452."

Axis,

I almost put this out as yet another "What Media Bias" entry because the headline is "Army Meets Recruiting Goal Again" when the actual story is as I've put it - Army Exceeds Recruiting Goal.

What the rest of the story tries to do - and you fall for - is to try and slice and dice this fact; the Army meeting or exceeding its recruitment goal for the past 12 months, into something bad. Sorry, no dice - the Army, which traditionally had the hardest time meeting recruitment goals even in peacetime, is meeting or exceeding its goals for this past 12 months.

Stick that in your leftwing pipe and smoke it.

Your absolutely right Mark! I attended two high school graduation in the last week! One school was graduating 140 kids the other 170! Out of all those kids 8 joined different branches of the armed forces! Would you believe it(of course you would, your not axis) they were the only kids in the ceremony to recieve standing ovations from the crowd. Go figure!!!

clarification: our high schools do this neat little thing of announcing what you are doing with your life after graduation! Also out of all those kids only one girl was going to travel europe for the summer!

Republican double speak? I think that President Bush has been quite clear from the begining. That this would be a very long struggle that may last for decades. We ignored it for 30 years and paid the price.

As far as fearmongering, I have no fear. I understand what the stakes are, but am unimpressed by the nature of the attacks thus far. I stand a greater chance of dying from falling in a tub than being killed by terrorists. I think if one studies a bit of history, you will find that the present military of the United States has performed so much better than at any time in our past.

wade,

Are you referring to scaremongering tactics like this:

"In the twenty years since the Chernobyl tragedy, the world's worst nuclear accident, there have been nearly [FILL IN ALARMIST AND ARMAGEDDONIST FACTOID HERE]."

Oooops, that was the Greenpeace Press Release verbatim.

it must be:

"If the Repbublicans get in, they will be starving the children and polluting your air and deinking water."

Ooops that has been the Dumocrat mantra for the past 6 elections.

So who is scaremongering?

axis - But young men and women don't join in the spring. They wait until they finish school. June, July, and August are the big months. Averages don't reflect the cycle.

Note though, that the United States Marine Corps has been in some of the roughest areas in Iraq. And there are no illusions about what a Marine recruit is getting himself into. And yet, the Marines have consistently met their goals (ooh-rah).

Maybe it's the willingness to serve and not fear that drives these people Wade. Maybe for the individual volunteering to be put in Harm's way with all the possibilities of death and injury, it is overcoming fear to serve that is the real story. This seems to be a trait lacking in many liberals these days - the willingness to serve. You have no problem ruling. But serving is out.

Kahn,

I don't think the axis' of the world understand that...they don't understand, as it were, that if I were 19 instead of 41, I'd be volunteering, just as I did back in 1983.

Don't turn an abstract number into some sort of political football, just because millions of dollars are being poured into advertising, doesn't give context to what the social, economic and home situations of kids joining the military are. I wonder what the numbers would look like if anti-recruitment ads showing kids in Walter-Reed or blown up Iraqi children were given the same budget and airtime during NASCAR races and NBA finals games?

Abstract political football? i think it's a pretty esablished fact that liberals avoid service these days. I note that in Democratic controlled counties in Florida back in 2000 they did their darndest to exclude military absentee ballots. Why I wonder?

Virtually NONE of the current officer corps for any service comes from the Ivy League and very few from liberal universities elsewhere in the nation. And, I'll think you find that soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines have a pretty good idea what their getting into when joining these days. The liberal failure to step up is a glaring example of their unworthiness to lead.

Actions and inactions have consequences.

TEO, it looks like you are setting up a new shot at the tired old, and debunked, myth that Viet Nam was a war of minorities and the poor. Check your stats on that war, and then on this one.

This is an all-volunteer army. The economy is strong and unemployment is at nearly record lows. This means that jobs are available. (Mark mentioned this but he did not explain it, which is clearly necessary for some.)

So here we have someone who has not served either of his countries, who prides himself on not serving as illustrated by his brag that at least he 'does not have the blood of innocents on (his) hands' which of course indicates that those who serve do, and therefore not serving is braver and more honorable. In other words, a lefty. One who still manages to benefit from the many opportunities available in this great country, while sneering at those who lead it, those who defend it, and those who support them.

Oh, BTW, showing people "pictures of blown-up Iraqi children" would probably INCREASE enlistments, as most people are smart enough to realize that the vast majority of "blown up Iraqi children" were blown up by their own countrymen or co-religionists, and need our protection. You see, there are people who are not only idealistic, they are brave. They go out and act on their idealism, knowing all the while that some of the people they are protecting are weak and cowardly and twisted but acting on their ideals all the same.

You might also look up the definition of the word "abstract" as it appeared to me that Mark quoted real numbers, not abstractions.

Almiranta,

Vietnam wasn't a war of poor and minorites because we instituted a draft, theoretically it should be random.

The point I was trying to make is that the military plays on themes in their commercials, I personally like the one with the guy walking into a room of his HS buddies, being very stoic and obviosuly getting awed admiration from his 'Slacker' friends. The connotation that somehow merely being in the military raises your worth in this nation is a meme the recruiters and slick advertisers want to push, never forget that the military, at its lowest common denominator, is an institution of hired killers, slice it anyway you want, but that is its intended goal. Peace is not the domain of a military.

I was saying that if you had a well funded anti-war commercial barrage showing the reality of war, instead of showing guys doing pull-ups and dressed in their parade blues, but instead showed them sitting in 130 degree heat wondering when KBR will get around to providing water that isn't laden with sediment, or instead of an intrepid young soldier rolling in his M1A2, that same young man silent in the face of a woman asking God why America dropped a bomb on her house, killing her family...I don't think they teach those kinda skills in basic.

Always remember that a commercial isn't intended to provide information, it's a tool to sell something, so what does it say when the military needs to seel patriotism and duty to kids who aren't taught how to disect media, but instead are indoctrinated from elementary school with the notion that TV is a teacher, not something that is set-up to decieve...isn't that the right's big problem with the media...half-truths

Kahn,

Actions do have consequences...the consequence to our action has been civil war

No. Actualy we've been the ones supressing the civil war. The Shiites and Kurds had enough against the Sunni's to exterminate them after the fall of Sadaam - and they wanted to. We prevented this.

If the Sunni's really try for a civil war, and we let them, the two thirds majority of the country will kill them all.

But - your continuued hate filled attacks could cause one. Here.

Liberals. I realized something today. There is an information gap. You, get highly filtered and processed news with an agenda about Iraq from the press. You have no direct lines of information at all - because liberals are not serving.

Conservatives serve. We do. Our families do. Our friends do. Yours, do not. So we, hear the truth. And you, do not.

Kahn,

How insightful, did you pull that off the wrapper of a laffy-taffy, or from inside a fortune cookie?

actually my father is in Anbar, so I do get my info from in country, perhaps you should find out how many of your friends and family over there speak arabic.

--Man who stand on toilet, get high on pot

what unit? what rank? - liar.

axis,

I noticed you "cherry picked" the parts you wanted for the usual liberal "spin around the block"!

I have three nephews from the same family who signed up with the Marines and all have either been to Iraq or are there now.

Now just how many of those Canadian friends of yours did you say were helping out in Iraq along side of the United States, Britain, and others?

AAR

"actually my father is in Anbar" TEO

Based on some of your previous comments, pardon us if we are not sure which side he's on.

However, if he is on our side, please thank him for his service to his country for us, and may God protect him while he is away from his family.

Kahn,

hes a DoD employee, putz.

phnxbmed,

i'm sure you would be happy to know that my father and I don't share all the same viewpoints, but I thank you for the thought; he may be silly, but he was in the Army, so he knows how to keep his head down.

TEO, Well then. I guess he doesn't talk to you much then? And, I guess that HE tells you the truth but you won't (or can't through your blinding hatred) listen?

Good enough. Kudos to him. Derision to you.

Kahn,

your diaper is wet, go get that taken care of.

Kahn,

your diaper is wet, go get that taken care of.

TEO

I understand that you're just not very smart. And now I understand that your family agrees. But don't hold that against them TEO. Maybe with some professional help you could get over your anger.

You shouldn't be angry when people think you're stupid TEO. Everyone is unique and you're special in your own hate filled and dribbling way. Don't be angry. We can't all be smart. There are still lots of things you can do with your life. You could be a greeter at Wal-Mart, or sweep up at McDonalds, or lead the Democratic Party. Lots of things.

No. Actualy we've been the ones supressing the civil war. The Shiites and Kurds had enough against the Sunni's to exterminate them after the fall of Sadaam - and they wanted to. We prevented this.

If the Sunni's really try for a civil war, and we let them, the two thirds majority of the country will kill them all. -Kahn

You are one SICK puppy Kahn...

Shoot Kahn, by your standards he could be the greatest president of all time.

Virtually NONE of the current officer corps for any service comes from the Ivy League and very few from liberal universities elsewhere in the nation. And, I'll think you find that soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines have a pretty good idea what their getting into when joining these days. The liberal failure to step up is a glaring example of their unworthiness to lead.

Actually, the armed forces are made up of mostly Democrats. Republicans like 5-Deferrment Chaney or AOL-Bush use their clout to escape service; while men like John F Kennedy and John Kerry served with honor and walked away heros.
The young people that do join do so because they cannot afford college, health care, and cannot find jobs.

My God, but this thread proves beyond any doubt that liberals like TEO, axis, and Steve HATE the military and think anyone who volunteers for service is STUPID.

So, any one of you guys, can you please answer this: Assuming you claim to "support the troops," then exactly how do you do that while simultaneously hating what the troops do and believing they're all stupid for doing it???

Steve,

What? I'm not advocating that we let them kill the Sunnis. I'm pointing out a reality on the ground. You act like I want it to happen. But - by advocating immediate withdrawl, Democrats ARE advocating civil war. Because thats what could happen. Then, don't be surprised if it happens just the way I said.

And Johan - what are you reading - some old statistics from the Viet nam war? The military is hugely conservative and Republican. There is no draft. People join now - no draft. People join for training - yes. But they join to serve. Officers lead. But, liberals don't join. They don't want to serve. Liberals even keep recruiters out of schools and off campuses just to make sure no-one joins.

Do you think that people don't know there is a war on?

Jeeezzzzz, are all you liberals really this stupid?

Oh - and somethiong else often left out of the "Army story". People have been re-enlisting at HIGHERE than expected rates. Soldiers and marines have also been volunteering to go back to Afghanistan AND Iraq at very high levels. Maybe these people WHO HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN THERE know that we are in a fight, that we are winning, and that NOW is not the time to surrender.

But of course, you liberals know nothing of this. Because, you don't serve. You just want to rule. You just want to impose your (narrow) ideas on the nation.

JPL, it is very possible to support the troops without supporting the war or without supporting the president.

To the contrary of your rubbish right wing talking points,

Democrats support the troops and want them to return ALIVE and well.

Republicans on the other hand support the WAR, not the troops. If you supported the troops, you would make have sure they have proper body armour, properly armoured vehicle and enough troops to complete the mission. Most troops are being rationed to 1 or 2 meals a day now to save $$$, so they are not even being properly cared for. All the while Republican contractor Halliburton makes BILLIONS in profit from all this.

Republicans have failed the troops and thousands have died when they did not need to or would have if properly equipped.

This was an unnessary war, there was no threat there from Saddam, there were no terrorist there until after you occupied Iraq.

All you have done is warmonger and screwed it up to boot, got a lot of people killed all the while allowing the Neo-cons to rape, pillage and steal in the chaos. Neo-cons are war profiteers of the worst kind, they are willing to START a war in order to profit from it. And they don't care how many die so long as they can continue to profit from it.

I have family/friends that lean far left 7 right, and I have family in Iraq, and family that march in protest of the war... makes for one helluva Thanksgiving dinner I can tell you.

The viewpoints are obviously opposing, and the situation seems to be...

Stay the course. Risk more American lives to save the lives of the Iraqis. Put our hopes on the Iraqi assembly since this is now something that can not be won militarily, but politically, and just start ticking off American soldiers names until one of two things happen. They pull it together, or it falls apart.

OR, pull out early... cut and run so to speak. Let our soldier's who have lost their lives die for nothing, and leave the Middle East a mess while losing face in the world.

So it would seem that the conservative viewpoint is to gamble American lives on it coming together.

And the progressives/liberals are not willing to gamble American lives thinking it's better to quit while ahead.

Regardless, of the viewpoint in America it's obvious that it's up to the Iraqi people to make this work now. I doubt liberal peace marching will have any affect on the Iraqi assembly, and I doubt that our military presence is going to do anything other than hold both sides at bay until 2000 years of religious disagreement can be resolved.

So what exactly are we looking at? I think we need to weigh the risk vs reward along with a common sense approach to the chance of civil war whether we stay or not. And, of course will our occupation of a Middle Eastern country make us safer?

I do not know the answers to these questions. The only thing that is certain now is that this administration through it's rose colored glasses has left us in a place where our soldier's future lies in the hands of the Iraqis.

If this was the plan, then it was a disasterous one.

Kahn is correct, liberals actually believe they inhabit the military!! That is pretty grossly inaccurate. Since they don't ever wish to fight, I consider that all the libs and the slimy modern Democratic Party all have battered wife syndrome. They won't even protect themselves. Just like Dan Berg's old man, who blames the President for a terrorists beheading of his own son. How fricken unhinged can you get?

JPL,

You're grasping onto one point in my argument, and then tying to say that is my WHOLE arguement.

I said that the government is spending many millions to advertise the military. Now why do firms advertise? Advertising is used to sell a product, if it was something which everyone wanted and sold itself, then we would have no need to advertise for it. But obviously the military sees a NEED to up it's "market share" and the need is great enough to extend incentives to cover the gap.

Now im not saying that the mere fact that the military advertises is a sign that they are lying to anyone, but i was making a connection between every commercial you've ever seen and the army/marine commercials now playing.

Let me ask you a question, when was the last time you wastched a commercial and walked away from it saying, that was informative and educating, and has made me a more informed consumer? Do we watch Super Bowl commercials to be educated about a product? I argue that the military has gone about trying to induce a sense of moral and social standing with anything remotely associated with itself, in a very opaque sense saying, "Join the military, wow your friends, be regarded as someone worthwhile, because if you aren't a man's man you are just another slacker playing video games".

Now if you were to see a slew of anti-war ads picturing wounded soldiers and Iraqi children, while not a complete representation of the reasons and back story of the war, you would find that the recruiting tools would become much less effective. The point i was trying to make is that 18 and 19 year olds in this country are not taught effective ways of dissecting TV, we are indoctrinated from early ages with things like Cable in the Classroom and Channel 1, and are basically taught that information is the realm of TV, that commercials are all equal, and that when a product claims something, that it is the whole truth, and that it should be taken at face value; that is not saying that people who join the military are stupid, but that they are just like all the rest of us, succeptable to slick marketing when it pushes the right emotional buttons...that is why cigarette commercials were banned...when was the last time you wanted a beer after seeing a beer commercial during a football game?

Amazing. TEO says his father is in Iraq and you ask for proof and attack him? Then he answers and you still attack him. Some people never cease to amaze me.

When you re-enlist you get a nice bonus Kahn. A CASh INCENTIVE. You get someone else to enlist ,another nice bonus. This has always been done but has been increased alot in recent years. If they couldn't be bought I bet you wouldn't have as many coming back.

Not only do we have a lot of recruitees in support of our patriot-ism, but also many junior and high school students who rally the troops efforts, and I am ALL behind them one-hundred percent!!!

Keep the Good news coming!!