matt - ever see "dirty jobs" on discover?

aren't there jobs u wouldn't do by choice (not necessity)?

Zarqawi dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have no problem with his having different views on this subject -I have a big problem with his betrayal of law and our security and sovereignity. I also have a big problem with his dishonesty in trying to push his blanket pardon and tenure for criminals as would a used car salesman. I ignored his ignorant mutterings and lesser liberal tendencies (no vetoes of overspending) but I will not forgive his doing what no liberal could have gotten away with if elected president.

I support him on Iraq -but he guards the front down while he dismantles the rear door.

I have no problem with his having different views on this subject -I have a big problem with his betrayal of law and our security and sovereignity. I also have a big problem with his dishonesty in trying to push his blanket pardon and tenure for criminals as would a used car salesman. I ignored his ignorant mutterings and lesser liberal tendencies (no vetoes of overspending) but I will not forgive his doing what no liberal could have gotten away with if elected president.

I support him on Iraq -but he guards the front down while he dismantles the rear door.

Sorry for the OT, but this is good news: Zarqawi is dead)

If the guest worker program results in amnesty and all these hard working immigrants get affirmative action, who is going to do the jobs Americans don't want to do? Where is all this immigration, legal or illegal, taking our country? Surely, Bush and the think tanks know where but haven't told us. Is this going to take us to the brink of the North American Union and leave us with no other choice?

I also don't buy the idea they are only doing jobs Americans won't do. They are doing jobs SOME Americans won't do. They are also taking jobs from high school graduates, college students, and construction workers.

I wish the President could be more articulate and forthcoming about this whole issue.

Even the number one supporter of Pres Bush and the GOP do not like this amnesty plan. This ought to be a clue to Republicans that they need to scrap the Senate version and adopt the House version or a move to the "right" of the House version might be in order.

Having a little trouble with this type key. Apologize for multiple posts. I'm not sure if the others registered. When the number one supporters of the Bush administration being the editors of blogs for Bush are not enthusiatic about your immigration plan, it is probably time to change course.

There's no such thing as jobs americans wont do. Americans will do anything, they just need to be paid a fair wage. Bush is all on keeping the wages below industry standard to make big business and companies rich by not having to pay fair wages. To Bush, Mexicans make a great slave class of people for his base of big business and heavy hitters

Here is the elephant in the room folks: half of all the children in this nation under 5 are hispanic, so that means in 25 years whites WILL be a minority; so you have to ask yourself, even with assimilation in becoming good, tax-paying citizens who love their country, I would assume the left leaning political tendencies of their parents are going to show their heads in the policy decisions of our government of that time. The question is just how far will their kids and the parents have made it up the societal ladder, will we be talking about an emerging middle-class more concerned with tax policy on middle-income earners, or will they be in the lower brackets, still working low-skill jobs and fighting for basic healthcare and minimum wage reforms? So the question is not what we do with them, or how high we build a wall, but what kind of bloc they will represent, and the policies they are going to be pushing, and to whom those policy wants will be playing into the hands of. I would expect withint most of our lifetimes we will see a western hemisphere free trade agreement, but to what extent its going to benefit the US, and to what extent nations like mexico and central america are going to be weilding MUCH larger economic clubs in this nation.

Here is the elephant in the room folks: half of all the children in this nation under 5 are hispanic, so that means in 25 years whites WILL be a minority; so you have to ask yourself, even with assimilation in becoming good, tax-paying citizens who love their country, I would assume the left leaning political tendencies of their parents are going to show their heads in the policy decisions of our government of that time. The question is just how far will their kids and the parents have made it up the societal ladder, will we be talking about an emerging middle-class more concerned with tax policy on middle-income earners, or will they be in the lower brackets, still working low-skill jobs and fighting for basic healthcare and minimum wage reforms? So the question is not what we do with them, or how high we build a wall, but what kind of bloc they will represent, and the policies they are going to be pushing, and to whom those policy wants will be playing into the hands of. I would expect withint most of our lifetimes we will see a western hemisphere free trade agreement, but to what extent its going to benefit the US, and to what extent nations like mexico and central america are going to be weilding MUCH larger economic clubs in this nation.

I am a legal immigrant who became a citizen. I adopted the ways of America and use the language. My lack of being unable to speak and understand Spanish has hindered me is many ways because Mexican immigrants will only speak English when it suites them. Why should I, an American have to learn to speak their language and why does everything official in the state of Texas have to be printed in both English and Spanish? I see the benefit of my speaking several languages but they should be required to learn our language. Comming from the lower lower middle class I can attest that there are no jobs American citizens would refuse to do. They just refuse to do them under the conditions employers can make illegals do them. Punish the employers!

June,

Amen!

DL, before you trash Bush too much for his failure to veto spending bills, I suggest you spend some time following the current discussions on allowing a line item veto.

Right now, a president has to approve a bill exactly as it is sent to him, or veto the entire bill. Congress is brilliant at slipping outrageous spending into unrelated but very critical legislation. This puts the president in the position of vetoing things that are important, or signing bills that are important even though they contain spending provisions that he does not like.

A line item veto would allow the president to go through a bill and approve parts of it while vetoing other parts. This would go a long way toward eliminating the damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't aspect of legislation that goes on right now.

As for "adopting American values" that may be code for saying what can't be said outright, due to political correctness. It might mean not driving without insurance, or learning to use doctors or clinics for regular health care instead of emergency rooms, or flushing public toilets after use. It might mean not throwing trash out of car windows, or spaying or neutering pets. It could mean a lot of things that don't immediately come to mind unless you happen to live in one of the areas overrun by illegals. It does not necessarily mean having 4th of July parties or knowing about George Washington and the cherry tree.

axis is gracing us with another of his lectures on economics, which are about as relevant as Bill lecturing us on the importance of marital fidelity.

He seems to have a plethora of theories about what America is "really like" and they are, like his other theories, totally wrong.

There are some big companies that depend on migrant labor. Packing plants, for example. Swift closed all its plants to support the May 1 march, which is why I refuse to buy any more Swift products. I don't think they pay Mexicans less than they would have to pay anyone else, though I haven't checked into that. But I think it's just harder to get Americans to sweep up cow guts all day, or cut up meat, or even kill animals for a living.

Most illegals work for small companies---around here, roofing companies, local contractors, and temp agencies for day workers seem to be the main sources of migrant laborers.

It's hardly slave labor, either. When I needed some general labor done, hauling stuff out of my yard and so on, and I contracted with a temp agency, they paid their workers along the lines of $10.00 an hour. Fro someone with no education, no particular skills, no English at all, who can wear old ratty clothes to work and have his transportation and insurance and Workmen's Comp provided, that's pretty good.

Now, if you have been on the dole all your life (and axis TALKS like one who has, in spite of wild claims of former earnings) you may not realize that jobs that pay much more than that also demand much more than that. Better-paying jobs require decent clothing and good hygiene, some basic skills at the very least, some people or communication skills, the ability to speak English, and usually some education.

Anyone who knows anything about the president knows that his misguided stance on immigration is based on his personal knowledge of the grinding poverty of so many Mexicans, the hopelessness of their lives, and his deeply felt compassion for their condition and desire to make it better. He lived very near the border, his brother married a Mexican woman, he learned to speak Spanish to communciate with the migrants he met in Texas, he had to deal with the problems when he was the governor of Texas, and he has deep personal feelings for the problems these people face. I think he is completely wrong in his approach.

I suppose it makes sense to someone as limited as axis to claim that Bush wants a slave culture of Mexicans, when Bush is really pushing for citizenship and full rights and privileges for them. Oh, that's right----"sense" and "axis" just don't belong in the same sentence.

Almiranta,

I might add your long tirade contains very little value.

I said that there are no jobs that americans will not do, as long as they are paid a fair wage.

Americans will work in factories, packing plants, picking produce etc. They have been doing such things since the beginning of the industrial revolution. The arguement that americans won't stoop to doing the jobs that immigrants do is absurd. When George Bush Sr was in office, there was only 1 million illegals in the country or less. Who did all the grunt work back then? Thats right. Americans did.

Then a flood of illegals began coming in, related to NAFTA squashing the prevailing wages there in Mexico, so they started coming here instead. Companies found that by hiring illegals, they could pay them far less and get the same amount of work and make much more profit.

Illegals now are not unlike YOUR ancestors that came here from Ireland, Britain, Scotland Etc in search of opportunity and a better life.

The problem here is 2 fold, you need to revamp NAFTA to get big business out of Mexico and Central America which are driving down the wages there.

You also need to crack down on companies and big business here hiring illegals. This is like a big magnet attracting them here.

This issue is not going anywhere fast. It is pandoras box. Bush figured opening it would give them a platform for the midterms, but like everything elseBush touches, it blew up in his face and now he has the corportist Republicans that want cheap labour here fighting the nativist Republicans that want them gone. This is a big wedge that is driving the Republican party and its supporters apart, instead of bringing them together.

This issue is going to cost you far more votes in November that you are ever going to gain.

"Here is the elephant in the room folks: half of all the children in this nation under 5 are hispanic..."-Posted by: Third Eye Open

Source?

Not sure about half, but its a high percentage and combined with the blacks and other minorities, they will outnumber whites within a couple decades if white population continues to decline and minorities continue to increase.

Within 20 years, conservatism could be dead and buried in a sea of minority liberalism. That will be a good day.

Freedom1,

Sorry, I misquoted the stat. It's half of the children under 5 are minority, now I would argue the lion's share of those are of some stripe of hispanic decent, since black birth rates are in steep decline. Never the less, my point remains the same; in 25 years are we going to be talking about a seething underclass who is voting democrat, or a prosperous middle-class from which the republican party can win votes on social issues?

The issue of south and central america having a larger say in our economies is a given. As a hispanic myself I know how important family is. Nana and Papi back in honduras are going to continue to mold the radical democratic leanings that is engrained in hispanic culture and history...expect Hugo Chavez (providing we don't assasinate him firsst) to be on t-shirts right next to Bolivar and Che, I promise that!

Third Eye Open,

Thanks for the correction. Catholicism is also ingrained in Hispanics. For that I say, HALLELUJAH!!!
:)

axis, you will never find anything of value in any of my posts, even when you choose to label them "tirades". I will never agree that this is a terrible country, I will never think Jane Fonda is a hero or John Kerry is qualified to lead a dogcatcher pararde, I will never agree that Bush is a bad person responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened, I will never agree that America has brought violence upon itself...in short, I will never be able to post anything that YOU, from your very limted point of view, will ever find of value.

I do, however, post facts, along with my opinions, and you have repeatedly shown us that you find no value in facts.

TEO, I work with Latinos from several South and Central American countries, and they are not as ingrained in the "radical democratic" system as you would like to believe. As one Peruvian friend recently told me, "People do not come here to come to a COUNTRY...it is not geography. They come here because of the SYSTEM, which gives them freedoms and opprtunities the systems at home don't. And then when they get here they try to destroy the system that attracted them, and go back to the systems they ran away from. It doesn't make sense." So, TEO, what about the systems of your beloved "radical democratic" Honduras made you feel this was a better place for you to live? If the "radical democratic" system of Honduras is so beloved and so productive, there should have been ample opportunities for you there.

Honduras is not one of the countries I have visited, so I am not very familiar with its economy or culture, but I don't remember hearing anything that would make me think of it as a leader in economics or even basic standard of living. So I am at a loss as to what, exactly, are the benefits of your beloved "radical democracy".

While it would not surprise me to have some lefties adoring Chavez the way they do Fidel and Che, I am not sure if your post is for or against him...the comment about assassinating him kind of threw me. But I do know that the educated, employed, professional, middle class Latinos I know and work with are conservative, and according to them the leftists only appeal to the poorest and most ignorant if their respective countries.

axis, you will never find anything of value in any of my posts, even when you choose to label them "tirades". I will never agree that this is a terrible country, I will never think Jane Fonda is a hero or John Kerry is qualified to lead a dogcatcher pararde, I will never agree that Bush is a bad person responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened, I will never agree that America has brought violence upon itself...in short, I will never be able to post anything that YOU, from your very limted point of view, will ever find of value.

I do, however, post facts, along with my opinions, and you have repeatedly shown us that you find no value in facts.

TEO, I work with Latinos from several South and Central American countries, and they are not as ingrained in the "radical democratic" system as you would like to believe. As one Peruvian friend recently told me, "People do not come here to come to a COUNTRY...it is not geography. They come here because of the SYSTEM, which gives them freedoms and opprtunities the systems at home don't. And then when they get here they try to destroy the system that attracted them, and go back to the systems they ran away from. It doesn't make sense." So, TEO, what about the systems of your beloved "radical democratic" Honduras made you feel this was a better place for you to live? If the "radical democratic" system of Honduras is so beloved and so productive, there should have been ample opportunities for you there.

Honduras is not one of the countries I have visited, so I am not very familiar with its economy or culture, but I don't remember hearing anything that would make me think of it as a leader in economics or even basic standard of living. So I am at a loss as to what, exactly, are the benefits of your beloved "radical democracy".

While it would not surprise me to have some lefties adoring Chavez the way they do Fidel and Che, I am not sure if your post is for or against him...the comment about assassinating him kind of threw me. But I do know that the educated, employed, professional, middle class Latinos I know and work with are conservative, and according to them the leftists only appeal to the poorest and most ignorant if their respective countries.

Thanks for the correction. Catholicism is also ingrained in Hispanics. For that I say, HALLELUJAH!!!

-- The real Hallelujah is that they also vote Democratic

Almiranta,

I guess I should explain a few things that you misunderstood.

I am Cuban/Italian White-boy, born in Ft. Benning actually. I do not have family from Honduras, and infact only know one person from Honduras.

I do still have family in Cuba which I get second-hand information from on occasion. I do keep many hispanic friends from places like Columbia, Argentina, Chile, Costa Rica, Brazil, and a few other people who are american born with family still in Mexico and Puerto Rico.

The point I was trying to make was that hispanic ex-pats and naturalized citizens keep a "radical democratic" stripe about them. The history of south/central america is full of charismatic populist leaders, infact only in the last 50 years or so has a middle-class of any numbers even existed in these countries. In regards to your co-workers, while obviously skilled and educated enough to make it here to work, they represent such a small fraction of the populations of south/central america who are still substinance farmers and laborers, living in sub-poverty level conditions, even though their countries posess huge amounts of valuble resources.

I would argue that the history known by hispanics in the south focus much more on the populist gains, such as Bolivar, Che, Torrijos, Zapatistas etc, than on the ruling elite who has been reviled for centuries as the puppet governments they are (read: UFCO, Panama canal, etc.)

So when I say they are radical, I mean only by our standards, where you're more likely to get people out of bed for a sale than to vote, not that they necessarily will vote democrat here in the US. If you don't believe me, engage any of your co-workers in south american politics, and I bet you'll get an earful.

now my point about being aware of the politics of your family is relevant in that you have a vast majority of the workers here sending back money to support family back home, wherever home may be; and I would bet that by our standards most of the politics for a HUGE swath of hispanics revolves around freedoms of press, speech, and gathering that are so often usurped by their governments, that is why they come here (aside from the money). America is the place where you can make more money than you ever would have made back home, so I surmise it's simple economics for those who can make it here; but if you were to ask them what concerns them more as a south americans, healthcare or estate taxes I can put dollars to donuts where the majority of answers will land.

--I love donuts ;-)