I am sorry that our men and women are being forced to deal with police duty, since that isnt what their job is, they are admitantly doing a darn fine job with a very sour situation. But when you allow our troops to be the punching bag between a miriad of warring militias, you can expect them to get fed up, and when people react with fear, things happen. Now you can hide your head in the sand all you want, but even the military has said the bullets lodged in the bodies of the civilians came from "a few different weapons", that means our bullets were in them, now when a woman is prone on the floor in a praying position, with her dead child next to her, with US military munitions in them, traced back to a a few guns from our armories, I think that pretty much obliterates your case of propaganda or mistaken identity

Mark

Your sympathy is with the Marines, is it?

The innocent Iraqi victims killed, no sympathy for them? No sympathy for their families & loved ones? You know Mark, their deaths count as much as anyone elses'. Their lives are just as valuable.

msm feeding frenzies like this are little more than sensationalized accounts intended to attract readers for advertising revenue.

like the man said "when legend becomes truth, print the legend"

so then, who did shoot liberty valence?

I have sympahty for the marines as well. I've never been in combat, but I have great respect for how hard it is for soldiers and I know that bad things like this happen in war.

That being said, the victims here are those who were killed. And it looks like they were brutally killed.

Mark, you can believe what you like, but EVERY report indicates that these killings were unprovoked acts of rage.

Yes, the investigation will shed much light on what happened, but much light has already been shed, and it's not illuminating anything good.

Mark, you forgot about the cover up.

No matter what is revealed in the military's investigation, the el cubos will merely use Haditha as My Lai was used in Vietnam: to paint all Marines and Soldiers a frakkin' baby killers!
War happens, civilians got in the way, people die. Answer me this, el cubos: what the frak will YOU do when the Islamofascists and their terrorist allies come after YOUR family and slit their throats and/or rape them in front of your very own eyes?

Macker: War happens.

From the Downing Street memo:

"Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action."

Is sure does...

And Macker, from all reports, this was not civilans "getting in the way." This was Marines in a rage entering at least two houses and murduring over 20 people, including women and children.

I'm very sad it happened, and feel sorry for all involved, but I'm not going sugar-coat what looks like happened.

Canadian O and Tom - Some other attrocity stories have turned out to be false. In OUR system(yours too Canadian) we let the justice system determine the facts and people are presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. How hard it is to put thse words into practise. Personally, I don't know what happened.

By the way though - our guys have had a petty rough time over there with vitually NO support from the left. It would be refreshhing to see some of you people who hate Bush not be so quick to transfer that hatred to our servicemen and condemn Marines with no facts. These people have families and lives and were willing to serve - when you were not.

If they did the crimes - then they should pay. But I'm not basing my views on the tiny amount of "facts" that I've seen so far. Really now - how much do you KNOW?

From LaLa land we present Mark Noonan. Somehow I knew he would deny it ever happened. And if it is proven to happen he will probably find a way to blame the 13 year old girl involved.

THIS is why we are so hated in the world.

"By the way though - our guys have had a petty rough time over there with vitually NO support from the left. It would be refreshhing to see some of you people who hate Bush not be so quick to transfer that hatred to our servicemen and condemn Marines with no facts."

Kahn, I'm going to start getting pissed here. You specifically address me. Show me ONE instance where I show hatred for our service men and where I condemn our Marines with no facts?

Bulls**t Ash. We are hated because we've moved forward and DONE something with what God gave us. The Islamofascists want to throw that all away and force us back into the 7th Century.
I won't stand for that.
We may make mistakes from time to time, but it's a hell of a lot better than what they can muster.

I, for one, will let the investigation insue before I make a judgement either way, though I am inclined to side with the Marines.

Here are some interesting facts about this situation :

The heresay of which Mark speaks came from the only survivor of the incident, a small child (I think it was a girl, but I don't feel like looking it up right now). In our system, I don't think that eye-witness testimony is considered "heresay."

One of the Marines in the clean-up crew (now suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome) recognized many of the wounds as bullet wounds, which would debunk the story that the roadside bomb killed these people.

When Time broke the story, they were immediately accused of bying into the terrorist propaganda and deemed as hurting our war effort by the Pentagon, who later started an investigation.

Those were some various tidbits that I had heard from cable news (fox included) and read in various newspapers. You can take those in to account, or you can take them with a grain of salt. As I said, I am inclined to side with our servicemen, but I won't categorically assume that every Marine is a good-natured person, though the vast majority of them sure are.

Kahn,

If you wanna get mad at someone, feel free to get mad at me, I will admit that we may have gone and jumped some guns, blame it on bad intelligence, or trying to advance freedom somewhere, ill let you choose the reasoning.

I am sorry if my words hurt the credibility of our armed service boys and girls, you are right I am not there, i don't know the terrors they go through on a daily basis, wondering if the last letter you wrote, will be the last one ever, or if the family you worried about up the block will turn on you and shoot you in the back. I accept these worries and applaud our military for doing a dirty job, but the point here has been made, War may be Hell, but that doesnt mean we need to stoke more fires for some endless ideal of fighting on so we dont dishonor the dead, I would say the dead care less about honor than they do about not being alive.
So I will accept responsibility, I will bear the cross if you wish, but believe me, if these guys did go on a rampage as all the evidence and government/military officials are claiming, all hell is going to break loose, this will go down in the middle-east as just another example of christian imperialism, and be used for generations as recruiting tools, in the same breath as Fallujah.

Ash - One of my Marine friends was wounded by a 13 year old in Viet Nam. And children as young as 10 are carrying guns all over Africa. That alone means nothing.

Tom - the first part was directed at you. Let's not be so quick to judge without facts. But, well let's see; "brutally killed" Would being shot be brutally killed? I mean it's quick. Or would Brutal mean beaten to death? Raped and beaten to death? Dragged behind a vehicle? It's all in the adjectives isn't it? You don't know the facts so all the adjectives are suposition - get it?

Would being killed by a roadside bomb be brutally killed? In that light, these Marines just saw their best friends brutally killed? Would that make your blood hot or cold? It's far more complicated and messy than we can possibly fathom from the air conditioned and safe confines of work or home here. I'm willing to wait and see what the facts are.

How can anyone possibly argue with that? Is liberal hatred that deep?

What a waste of time this investigation was. The spent all this time and money interviewing witnesses,going through testimony, reviewing the scene and the evidence.

All un-necessary. Mark's been watching CSI and he doesn't believe it. Case Closed.

Seriously though, anyone looking at the investigation with a rational mind (many conservatives are mostly incapable of this), would be incapable of concluding that it never happened as Mark does.

We know that the official cover story for the incident has changed TWICE. The first was that they were insurgents and the military was only defending themselves. This was uncovered when investigators found no bullet holes on the outside of any of the houses, only in the inside. Then the story changed to they were all killed by an IED. The second was concocted by someone higher up in the chain of command

We also know that the army has uncovered a coverup and that some involved in the incident had supplied false testimony. some of those have come clean now.

Clearly, there can be no doubt that it did happen, all that remains is to determine who was responsible for the incident and who covered it up.

1. Our troops have been having comrades killed by roadside bombs for three years now - why would this particular roadside bomb cause our Marines, who have behaved with exemplary courage and discipline all through this war, to suddenly run amok?

-- Actually, there have been a number of incidents like this that are currently under investigation, such as the one last march where an identical thing happened and several families including children were slaughtered and the bodies burned. Don't forget that ugly little incident in fallujah. Then we have that incident yesterday were 2 woman were cut down in their car, one pregnant and going into labour.

The soldiers are stressed out, over deployed, have inadequate body armour and inadequate armoured vehicles and when you mix all that together, sooner or later some snap.

2. The evidence is very thin: a video clip and some second-hand hearsay. As all who read here regularly know, I consider a picture worth a thousand words - and every one of them is a lie. Just because someone has a video of people allegedly killed by Americans doesn't mean that Americans actually killed anyone, or that anyone was killed at all. Hearsay, of course, is just hearsay - it is worthless.

-- Yes, let's forget about the first hand witnesses on the scene including survivors of the massacre, all the forensic evidence, testimony and other evidence shall we?

3. The military fell like a ton of bricks on an officer who merely fired a weapon in proximity to a captured terrorist. If our military prosecutors would go after a man for doing that, how could the massacre of 24 people in November of last year be missed until now?

-- Uum, maybe because it was covered up perhaps? Even Rummy admitted that it was covered up.

4. It is too tailored for enemy propaganda: it is just what the enemy says we do, all the time. I don't believe too much in coincidences.

-- You're right, lets ignore it and put it to rest so this kind of thing can continue. People love seeing innocent children and women slaughtered in their homes. Maybe is can be turned into a reality show. You could call it Survivor: Iraq Edition.

Mark, your ability to bury your head in the sand is phenomenal. Those on the far edge of the left suffer from the same sort of bias, of course. Really, it's astonishing how similar you are to the lefties who liken Bush to Hitler.

This one happened. I don't think you'll be able to write it off as propaganda much longer.

"Finally, if a crime did take place, my sympathy will still be with our Marines"

This sentiment, frankly, is sickening. If multiple reports from different sources (at least one a Marine) are accurate, someone murdered a 3 year old girl.

Third Eye - all what facts?
What was the timeline?
Who was involved?
How many were killed?
Who was killed?
How many shots were fired and from what weapons?
What do the ballistic tests show? Who's weapons killed what people?
What did their autopsies show?
Did any of the dead have gunshot resdiue or traces of explosives on their hands?
Were there weapons found?
Did the people killed participate in the bombing?
Did they see the bomb being planted and fail to warn the Marines?

Apply the basic crap you pick up from watching CSI and apply it here. You have minimal real facts. ALL of the rest of your statement is based upon a judgement you made with few facts. I'm willing to wait and see what the investigation shows. Believe me - with the political pressure on, the Marines in question are in a bad place. If they're still over there, they probably don't even have lawyers (think about that).

Oh, judas H. christ Kahn, I'm simply looking at this case as I look at anything else. I look at the FACTS laid out. And the facts as they are reported say that at least 2 eye witnesses say Marines entered homes and killed families (ranging from old to children) without provocation.

Republican and democratic politians who have been briefed have said this looks very bad for those involved.

Both the NYTimes and Washington Times report that murder charges against at least 2 marines are forthcoming.

The US military today said marines initially lied about what happened, saying the families were killed by a roadside bomb and not shot.

Time did an 10 week investigation into this with multiple witness reports into the action of the marines that day.

Everything I have seen and read about this story tells me Marines murdered innocent men, women and children.

And no, the investigation is not over, we'll see what happens. But as a rational human being, it looks like a terrible thing happened.

Tom - yes - but, well now it's two Marines? And everything published (no matter if it's the NYT or the Post) is very light on facts. AND, Marines and soldiers have been charged for other crimes where the cases fell apart based upon forensic evidence. Did you read the letter from a Marine who was cleared after being charge in the Washington Post?

If they are proven guilty, then so be it. Don't forget how the FBI made it look like Richard Jewell was evil incaranate in Atlanta - and it turns out that just the opposite was true.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/27/olympic.bomb.main/

Why are you unwilling to adhere to the priciple of innocent until proven guilty? The published "facts" are not complete and are being spread by people trying to cover their asses or with a political agenda. I'm willing to wait to see who is charged with what - AND to see if they are convicted. I believe that is the way America SHOULD work. Maybe I'm more idealistic than you.

A couple of predictions:

First, if the Marines in question are proven to be innocent by the military investigation, many in the liberal media as well as liberal people and organizations will cry "coverup" and demand an independent investigation. Probably something U.N.-based. You'll also see Murtha jump on that bandwagon.

Second, if Marines are found guilty or negligent, there will be liberal extremists who will call for the head of Donald Rumsfeld as if he actually ordered the actions. Murtha and similar people will probably twist it to condemn the military in general and blame Bush.

Kahn, don't mistake me being nice and conceeding a point that im willing to give these guys their day in court, as being weak on issues.

They were killed by marine weapons...the ballistics were traced to "a few guns". Therefore by reading this funny little language called english, we come to the conclusion that marines were there, they did shoot people, now all to be determined was who did the shooting.

1. Timeline: it would have been pretty small, since we have video very soon after the marines left, and pictures from the marine unit sent in the next day to clean up the mess.

2. Who was involved: Marines with the guns who match the bullets in the civilians.

3. How many killed: at this point, approx. 24.

4. shots fired/which weapon: refer to my previous answer, we know marines discharged their weapons, and the ballistics will determine whos weapons were used to that end.

5. autopsies: the pictures show death by bullet, if you're wondering if the bullets were after being blown to bits by an imaginary blast by the IED that killed the young marine, then I ask you to check out the video and ask yourself, where are the shrapnel wounds, where are the burn marks?

The rest of these questions will be im sure argued in the marines trials, you can imagine all you want that this didnt happen, and im sure its much more comforting to believe that our guys arent shooting innocent people while on a rampage, but someone with marine ammunition and marine weapons, who the marines are still in possesion of, shot these people, there is no dispute there, so when this finally resolves itself, I hope we can come together, get these men and women out of country, and bring them home for some well deserved R&R

I don't know if you're more idealistic or not.

I'm not ready to send anyone to jail. I'm just calling it like I see it. Just as Mark has done. Difference is, I'm basing my opinion on the facts of the case as they are.

Mark is assuming people are lying (aside from those who tried to cover up what happened).

Seriously Kahn, how can you come down so hard on me when I'm drawing opinion from facts of the case, and not say anything about this from Mark:

"2. The evidence is very thin: a video clip and some second-hand hearsay. As all who read here regularly know, I consider a picture worth a thousand words - and every one of them is a lie. Just because someone has a video of people allegedly killed by Americans doesn't mean that Americans actually killed anyone, or that anyone was killed at all. Hearsay, of course, is just hearsay - it is worthless."

I'm not trying to condemn marines. I'm just trying to set the record straight. Like you, I want the truth to come out. Mark's original post ignores and skews what the facts of the case are. I'm just trying to bring a little reality to this thread.

It doesn't look good for these guys.

One of my Marine friends was wounded by a 13 year old in Viet Nam.

So, at last, Kahn you are admitting similarities between Viet Nam and our "war" in Iraq?

Thank you.

The Islamofascists want to throw that all away and force us back into the 7th Century

Macker-

(anti-military slander removed) This has created uncounted new Islamofascists (your term). They will hate us more and remain more determined than ever. It reminds me of the arcade game that has gophers popping up from a hole and you smash it with a mallet, only to have two more gophers pop up from other holes.

We have two choices as I see it. Prepare for perpetual war or realize we cannot and morally should not remake the world in our image. I suggest the later.

Ash,

Yes. In that the press lost that war for us and is trying to do it again.

Yes. In that the left is completely willing to sell out our troops for a political agenda.

Yes. In that we are fighting a foe who does not adhere to the same rules that we impose on ourselves.

Yes. In that under some circumstances children (yes - when armed) and certainly women can be legitimate targets.

Others,

You have pess reports - NOT facts. Facts will be determined in court. I have read the same stuff as you. But, we'll see what happens when people are sworn in and evidence is admitted or not. I know that the press reports look bad. So did they for Richard Jewell. That does NOT mean that any particular Marines are guilty of anything.

Why are you willing to trash our justice system and race to judgement based upon incomplete press reports? Is that how you do things? Maybe these Marines did this. Given. But reading anything else into it is not right. Are they still in country? Do they have lawyers? Real ones, not military ones? How fair is THAT?

Oh so now it's slashed throats is it Ash? New facts just created by you. Slander and libel by the way.

You obviously hate Bush too much to be rational. You are now creating lies to condemn Marines based (apparently) upon a deep seated hatred.

Any liberals willing to go along with Ash? Join in the hate fest and disregard our legal system? Convict marines without trial?

Just what the hell is a liberal?

Hey Kahn,

the press didn't launch a single missle that caused "collateral damage", the press isn't shooting pregnant women, infact your VP is the one shooting people in the face.

No, they aren't playing by the rules, and that really suxs, maybe we should have expected a more vigorous insurgenceny, but I mean only the generals and pundits, and joe-shmos were saying we don't have enough troops, and who are they to question Shah Bush? Does that mean we disregard our own rules, that would mean that the terrorists have won, by making us give up on those ideals for which this country (perhaps?) is fighting for.

ok, lets get them some civilian counsel, im all for it, hell, dig up Cochran, I want to know my boys aint killing innocent people as much as anyone, but to whine about them not getting fair representation is like saying they should have more civil rights in the military, isnt that the point, that they give up their rights for a higher cause...sorry buddy, next excuse please!

Third Eye - you are really ate up with it aren't you? Cheney's hunting accident? WTF? &Your initial rant is a little dis-jointed.

What I'm saying is that you are an ignorant anti-Republican anti-military bigot. Hows that for clear. I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about but you're willing to throw a lynching because you hate so much. Clear enough for ya?

One thing though - before attacking Marines - just remember that we stick together, we're ruthless, and we know how to shoot. OK?

Tom,

You want an example of you hating the military? Here ya go:

Mark, you can believe what you like, but EVERY report indicates that these killings were unprovoked acts of rage.

None of the reports are official, no actual evidence has been released - and yet you are going on unsubstantiated rumor in war time and are clearly disposed to see the worst in it.

If you loved our military, you would be of my views on the matter - it probably didn't happen, but if it did, then the guilty should be punished.

Nice rebuttal Kahn,

you can paint me anyway you want, I have the ability to realize we exist in polar opposite sides of the political spectrum, infact we represent as a group, about 5% of the electorate, we are in a fight for the hearts and minds of the rest of the middle, so ill keep on laying down facts and truth, while you can keep making thinly veiled threats at me, just remember that the meek are the ones who will inherit the earth, peace!

TEO,
We do hold our troops to a higher standard, and if these Marines are found complicit in illegal activity; abuse of authority, disregard for human life, failure to follow command, murder, disturbing the peace or anything else, it is my hope that the people responsible will be punished in accordance with the standard of Military Law we have.
But, let’s not convict them before we allow the military to complete its investigation.

As to Ash, as an admitted coward draft dodger, that allowed others to fight and die in your place, I suggest you not mention Vietnam. You and that other military hating poster in this thread (Show me ONE instance where I show hatred for our service men and where I condemn our Marines with no facts? How about Vietnam, punk!) have lost your right to question our military.

I’ll give TEO his due; he states correctly that no excuse is valid if the men involved committed the atrocities they are accused of. You two simply assume that they did, and that all the military are criminals.

Carl,

I agree with your predictions - the liberal/left is gleeful about this...and they are really starting to disgust me.

Canadian,

But you don't KNOW anything about it other than Marines and non-Marines were involved in an incident where people ended up dead.

I go on the history of the United States Marine Corps - a magnificent history or bravery, sacrifice and discipline...given this, and given that I (like you) don't know the facts, my presumption is in favor of the Marines.

It could just be, you know, that the terrorists killed those civilians - you know, given the fact that THEY KILL CIVILIANS EVERY DAY, maybe, just perhaps, they killed these civilians, too? Is that just too hard for you to believe, Canadian?

I must admit that I have learned much from the liberal posts here.
I have learned that liberal means a blind hatred for Republicans.
I have learned that our justice system means nothing. Innocent until proven guilty as no longer a pillar of our system.
I have learned that liberals hate the military and give them no benefit of the doubt assuming that they are evil and wrong.

I now beleive that there exists a rift between "liberals" and conservatives that may have no peaceful resolution. Given the multiple violent attacks by Democrats against Republicans and Republican offices last election - it could be that we are heading toward a civil war in this country. Friends of mine have long argued that this is the real reason that Democrats want to eliminate the 2nd Amendment - Sadly, I'm beginning to beleive that they may have been right.

Mark

You should have know after you posted this that the left would jump at the chance to show their vicious and seething hatred of our young men and women in uniform.

Bane,
if you read upwards, I made my apology to Kahn and the rest of the community, I will admit I jumped the gun, and its not fair to convict these guys before they get a trial. This doesn't hide the fact that the reasons for things like this are direct consequences to a war with no logical end, short of complete ethnic cleansing of the middle-east, what I think everyone on the left is upset about is that we can continue to have incidents such as the shooting of a pregnant woman or the "collateral damage" that occurs, and keep claiming its for their own goods, or its pushing some sort of winnable situation...this is lemming talk at its worst.

My father and my cousin are both military and ex military respectively, actually pops is over in Al Anbar with the DoD right now, so this idea that somehow I hate the military is nothing but babble, I love the guys, I dont love their leg-pissing leaders who cant take a hint that these people dont want our help, they cheer for us or shoot at us depending on who we are shooting at, look at who these "insurgents" are, a vast majority of them are Sunnis or Shia, fighting a neighborhood war against tit-for-tat killings, and while their government is impotent, our boys and girls are their police, and the brunt of anger from both sides, not to mention the terrorists from Al Qaeda, its not a good situation, with no forseeable end, so much for personal responsibility and cleaning up our messes, this will be a war fought forever, debt and military burden for decades to come, and thats not the best way we can deal with this situation, there are ways to get out of this without killing more people, its just gonna require some apologiez for our mistakes, and promises to not make anymore by continuing to fight.

The innocent Iraqi victims killed, no sympathy for them? No sympathy for their families & loved ones? You know Mark, their deaths count as much as anyone elses'. Their lives are just as valuable.

Well, you see, the "culture of life" grades on a scale.

Kahn, ill make a deal with you, you give us all the blue states, and you can keep the red ones, and the plurality states we can rock paper scissors for, you all do what you want, we will stick to what we want, with agreed upon travel and trade arrangements between the two, sound like a deal, and noone has to shoot anyone for it, unless you need something to kill to make you feel like a man.

Mark,

You are insane. Press reports have as sources eye witnesses, republican and democratic politicians and the US military.

Defense attorneys for the Marines say that they believe the Marine Corps will be charging these men with murder.

And these are facts of the case. It is a fact that there are at least two eye witness accounts. It is a fact that Marines tried to cover up the fact that the victims were shot by marines. It is a fact that members of both parties says it does not look good for these marines.

Kahn, courts don't make facts. They examine them and come to a ruling. They will be looking at some of the same facts we are. And I am saying that the facts right now overwhelmingly incriminate these marines.

And Mark, don't you dare say I've shown hatred toward our service men and women. Don't let your hatred of me or the left turn you into a liar. I have not even come close to showing hatred for our servicemen and women and trying to paint my posts in such a vain is not only dishonest but reprehensible. You have no shame.

"It could just be, you know, that the terrorists killed those civilians"

OK people, left and right, after reading this statement, can any of you take Mark Noonan seriously?

Mark, US Marine Corps is preparing to charge two of its own with murder in this case and you still think it's just as likely that "terrorists" killed these people.

Please read:

"WASHINGTON, May 25 — A military investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, Congressional, military and Pentagon officials said Thursday.

Skip to next paragraph
Enlarge this Image

Lucian Read/WorldPictureNetwork
The military is looking into civilian deaths in Haditha, Iraq.

Related
Politics: Bush and Blair Concede Errors, but Defend War (May 26, 2006)
The White House: Covering a Friend's Back: Leaders Reverse the Roles (May 26, 2006)
Enlarge this Image

Hammurabi Human Rights Group, via Associated Press
An image from videotape taken shortly after a fatal raid in Haditha, Iraq. Residents there said several marines carried out unprovoked killings.
Two lawyers involved in discussions about individual marines' defenses said they thought the investigation could result in charges of murder, a capital offense. That possibility and the emerging details of the killings have raised fears that the incident could be the gravest case involving misconduct by American ground forces in Iraq.

Officials briefed on preliminary results of the inquiry said the civilians killed at Haditha, a lawless, insurgent-plagued city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, did not die from a makeshift bomb, as the military first reported, or in cross-fire between marines and attackers, as was later announced. A separate inquiry has begun to find whether the events were deliberately covered up.

Evidence indicates that the civilians were killed during a sustained sweep by a small group of marines that lasted three to five hours and included shootings of five men standing near a taxi at a checkpoint, and killings inside at least two homes that included women and children, officials said.

That evidence, described by Congressional, Pentagon and military officials briefed on the inquiry, suggested to one Congressional official that the killings were "methodical in nature."

Congressional and military officials say the Naval Criminal Investigative Service inquiry is focusing on the actions of a Marine Corps staff sergeant serving as squad leader at the time, but that Marine officials have told members of Congress that up to a dozen other marines in the unit are also under investigation. Officials briefed on the inquiry said that most of the bullets that killed the civilians were now thought to have been "fired by a couple of rifles," as one of them put it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/26/world/middleeast/26haditha.html?

Tom,

Have you looked up the Hammurabi Human Rights group? I just did a "google" on them...can't seem to find a web page for them, just the news reports that Hammurabi Human Rights group provided video first to Reuters, then to Time, which allegedly shows the victims of a US-conducted massacre of Iraqi civilians...the eyewitness accounts are on the video...but just who made the video? How did they get in there to make a video of a place where, allegedly, Americans were running amok killing people? Why did these Americans, after running amok, make no effort to, you know, bury the bodies out in the desert, or at least set it up to make it look like the terrorists did it?

You might recall that we had eyewitness accounts of thousands of bodies floating through the streets of New Orleans last year - heck, Tom, we had eyewitness reports (in House testimony, no less) that the levees in New Orleans were deliberately blown up!. We had Republicans and Democrats falling all over themselves to be first to condemn the government effort in New Orleans...only thing is, we now know that the federal government response to Katrina was actually quite good, and was good right from the moment the storm hit.

All you've got here, Tom, is unsubstantiated rumor - nothing else; You don't even have an official announcement that any Marines are in trouble over this...all you have is "sources say".

And yet, with this worthless pile of MSM crap, you have decided that the Marines probably did something horrific.

I'm ashamed to find that you are a fellow American, Tom.

TEO,
Historically, Iraq was the best educated, most affluent, and the only Arab country with a functioning middle class. Of all the Arab countries, Iraq is the most likely to succeed as some form of democracy; the military in country disagree with your gloomy assessment of the chances of this democracy taking hold. My ex-patriot Iraqi friends (and there are many in the San Diego area) disagree with your assessment; they all feel this can and will work.
The military and my Iraqi friends also disagree most strongly as to who the insurgents are; these are radical Islamists that don’t respect the Shiites or the Sunni, nor do they respect the rule of law, or common decency.
All we ask is that you support the troops, support their mission and don’t be so quick to sell out the Iraqis’ interests when those interests are consistent with interests. We support the only other democracy in that region, Israel, why not support another?

Did more searching on Hammurabi...absolutely nothing on who they are, where they come from, or what they do...I begin to smell a very large rat.

Mark it looks like you are losing credibility. I think everyone here believes suspects are innocent until proven guilty, but it doesn't look good for these guys.

BTW, I noticed that you were much less open-minded in your comments concerning Rep. Jefferson's investigation for alleged bribery-isn't HE innocent until proven guilty also? Or do you already KNOW all the facts?

Mark,
You’re talking to someone that quotes the Communist “Winter Soldier” group as authority. He’s a coward and a fool; don’t waste your time.

"I'm ashamed to find that you are a fellow American, Tom."

Good for you. By the way, the US military made their own video of in the houses.

You're in such deep denial it's scary.

Every communist here --- Kuhn-t, Turd Eye Blond, as-if and Barney (no funny name, the name "Barney" is curse enough) is so willing to accept press releases from al-Queda as fact.

Look at the times the press reported things that turned out to be false:

1. "Nixon Committed Crimes." Really? I never saw him convicted on ANYTHING!

2. "Lt. Col. Oliver North Committed Crimes." Again, where is the conviction?

3. "Gore Deafeats Bush." Ha! Just like "Dewey Defeats Truman."

Don't trust anything the press reports. Even FOX is starting to get a little to much, these days...

Have you ever noticed that the folks who don't have any trouble throwing around accusations of "treason" and "slander" get all worried about accusations in this case?

Don't worry though, Mark probably will produce some "evidence" that these people were actually shot by members of the MSM or maybe even Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan -- trying to cause an incident.

Oh yeah, and if they're convicted -- it will be the fault of an "activist" court martial.

Here's the world's smallest violin playing: "My Heart Pumps Purple P***" just for the right.

Conservative to the core, you're funny, go back to sleep

Bane, look here man, Iraq did havea flourishing middle-class, up until we destabalized them by back Sadaam, leave it up to america to back the wrong horse, but then again what the good thing for iraqis is, very rarely ever coincides with the best economic interest of America.
Secondly, while your friends may have pie in the sky ambitions about getting their homes back, its not the facts of the situation, look at who is fighting who, You have the badr Brigade, who is the ONLY police force in places like Basra, You have the Mahdi Army, which is just another militia doing the same thing, all these cops on the ground, they are just extensions of these two militias, with tons of smaller, ethnically related militias on the fringes, and america, smack dab in the middle. You have an outraged civilian population who sees things like Fallujah happen, where we had 300,000 people forcefully displaced, the entire city razed, all to watch the Insurgents run like rats to the next town, and setup shop there, can you imagine why there are kids on the corners with Ak's shooting anything that moves, can you see why there are forced ethnic cleansing, causing hundreds of thousands more displaced people, we are in the middle of a civil war, and we arent doing anything but stirring the hornet's nest

Conservative,

sorry, I was going to talk about your assertation that Iraq was the only viable country with a middle class, this is false, take a look at iran during this whole time, iran has been a magnet for art and thought, and had a flourishing middle class, full of teachers and shopkeepers, ofcourse this was all prior to our overthrow of the Shah of Shahs.

Afghanistan was known as the Jewel of Southwest Asian (there isnt much to be proud of, but im just reporting). They had a thriving middle class, where a center for medicine, and art, and thriving business, that was before the Russian overthrow, and our eventual backing of the Taliban, yet again, America chooses the wrong horse to bet on.

while both of these nations were not democracies, they were thriving cultures of thought and modern, tempered freedom. Now Iraq, again not a democracy, infact they have only known strong leaders in their approx. 100 years as a nationstate, so to say they have some sort of history, or are better suited for our brand of democracy is a lie.

ah yes . . . everyone must be measured and cautious in their responses to haditha. one must wait for all the facts to be clearly laid out y our military.

i wish this respect for facts and measured responses was with the chickenhawks and warbloodlusters during the run-up to this illegal invasion/occupation.

i wish the respect for facts and measured responses would be present during discussions about iran.

are we allowed to talk about abu graib yet? do we need to wait for more facts and precede with much caution and measured words?

your sanctomonious support for facts and patience is thinner than a burkas viel (which is going to be in-vogue again in the new-taliban ctrld afganistan)

Mark

If this event turns out to be murder by terrorists I will definitely apologize. Will you do the same if it is proven to be murder by members of the american military?

TEO,
There was no middle class under Saddam; the Iraq I speak of was before Saddam, talk to those that left. Next, the people displaced by the Islamofascists were glad to have the Americans there to bring back civility to the area.
The Iraqi police are almost as corrupt as they were during the Saddam days; that needs to be addressed by the Iraqis.
You’re buying into the Michael Moore-on idea that Iraq was a happy kite-flying Arab country under Saddam; and that we are responsible for the Islamofascists, nothing could be farther from the truth.
The only one around here lying about Iraq is you; you don’t understand the real history of the region, or the culture of these people; Iranians are Persian, not Arab, fool!

I ask this question to all the armchair generals on this site.

What exactly is it that terrorists want? Why are they doing what they are doing?

Bane,

Yeah - but I'm really beginning to smell a rat here: it is just too pat, too exactly what the terrorists and the anti-war left need for Iraq right now...and I still can't find anything on the Hammurabi Human Rights Group...this doesn't mean its bogus, but I find it odd that if a human rights group has video of alleged American atrocities that they don't put it up on a website...think of the interest that would generate; heck, just in the interests of getting donations to your cause, you'd put something like that up.

Things are really not computing - and I hope we can get the truth out before the MSM and the implant into the minds of Americans that something bad happened in Haditha.

Turd, I Blind ---

I am wide awake to the fact that your hatred of Bush and hatred of America runs deep in your cold, cold veins. "Trust America to back the wrong horse," you sez. You make me sick.

c0rpulent Prophet ---

I just wish the left would show the same respect for waiting for all the facts to come in as we on the right did when impeaching Bill Clinton.

We only discussed his murders and rapes after all the facts were in, proven for the world to see.

Salvalinus --- get a different screen name. Really, I'm dry on a mocking nickname. Work with me here.

Oh, wait...how's about SaveaLeninist! Crap, that's too complicated.

Did I say they were arab, you blustering fool, I know where the persian Empire was and what remains of it today, so quit thinking you're intelligent and explain the point you're trying to make...where were the islamic-fascists when sadaam was there? Huh can you explain where they came from, yup thats right, they came in when we disbanded all authority and let them in, you moron!

Read some history, see what your benevolent nation has been doing in the middle east, or south/central america, read about Reagan's backing of Iran through trade of weapons for hostages, read about the cia killing of torrijos in panama, read about the illegal war in nicaragua, read about who was giving Sadaam all his weapons, including the WMDs he did have, prior to 1991, read who backed the Taliban, then left them to run Afghanistan into the ground, read about who was responsible for the overthrow of the Shah, leading to the takeovers of the Mullahs...READ YOU DAMN IDIOT!
It's like talking at 3rd graders with you, you make up facts as you go along, then close your ears and keep repeating them.

Tom,

Yeah - as part of an investigation AND YOU HAVEN'T seen it yet.

You don't know anything, and yet you are leaping to conclusions...shameful!

Conservative to the Core,

How does it feel to wake up everyday, and realize you're just entertainment for people who know the history you won't accept, dance on jester, dance on...

Canadian,

I've done nothing which will require an apology - I'm the one NOT jumping to conclusions. I'm merely stating that I have more faith in the United States Marine Corps than I do in MSM reports - and I'm coming up with more and more questions about Haditha, which will be subject of a later entry.

Mark, if this was all BS, why would the military be indicting these guys if it was so easily explained away by some part-time blogwriter...do you think they would have let it get even this far, if they had even the slightest inkling it was a setup?

any serious charge of criminal activity by any American servicemember needs to be investigated and any servicemember who violates the Uniform Code of Military Justice should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. -noonan

as long as they are a low ranking grunt like lyndie england. right?

this thing is so sad. some american kids may face the death penaly becasue cowards and liars useed them to line there own pockets and fight and illegal war for profit-greed-hegemony-oil-imperialism. these kids most likely wouldnt have been murderers if they stayed at home, went to college-work etc . . .

i am NOT attacking the military. I AM ATTACKING THE CIVILIAN ASSHATS WHO USE ABUSE THE MILITARY AND CREATE POLICIES THAT KILL MY FREINDS.

I don't believe this story.

You don't know anything, and yet you are leaping to conclusions...shameful!
-both by Mark Noonan

That seems a little bit like a contradiction to me.

For all of you who wanted a timeline, read this week's Time magazine. They have a good article on it.

It is absolutely ridiculous to talk about an investigation in progress as if there has already been a conclusion reached. It is almost equally absurd that the Marine Corps, a very great institution, has absolutely no bad elements.

Lets all sit back and watch the investigation unfold.

Third Eye,

Thats just the thing - you don't know what the military is up to; all you've got is "sources say"...well, "sources said" there were 10,000 dead in New Orleans last year...."sources" will say all sorts of things. I prefer the results of an official inquiry, if you don't mind - until the evidence is in, I will suspend judgement, but will note that I am sympathetic to the Marines, and I will require some really rock-solid proof of wrongdoing before I'll believe it.

What is horrific is the way you on the left have so eagerly - with joy in your hearts! - lept upon this story... this is manna from heaven to you, just what the doctor ordered...and I'm just disgusted.

I think I see why this whole MSM media bias conspiracy theory has so much staying power.

When reports surface right-wingers don't like, then just bash the "MSM" citing one of the very few instances where the press get stories.

Truth is, 98% of the time, the press it right. This myth is just a crutch right wingers use to counter facts as they are reported.

I mean, any logical person will look at this case and believe the marines very well may have done something terrible. The most prudent thing is to reserve judgment, of course. But it doesn't look good.

Now Mark on the other hand just says "I believe the marines over the MSM."

Well, fine. But write that I hate troops because I see a lot of evidence that a couple are guilty of this crime. That's despicable.

If you want to be wrong on this, fine. If you want to ignore the facts as they are reported, fine. But don't spread false allegations of "hatred toward our troops." Don't say that relating these reports consists of slander against the US military. That's just dishonest of you.

Tom,

But you don't see any evidence at all - get that through your head: all you've got is stories...anyone can tell a story, Tom....telling a tale doesn't make it real.

Georgia,

You can't leap to a negative conclusion...I'm not leaping when I say that a story has been told to me, and given the background of information I have, I doubt its veracity...to jump to a conclusion requires one to take a story and believe it is true without any supporting evidence.

Did anyone say that the Marines can't have bad elements? No - but THINK about what we are being asked to believe here - that professional, volunteer Marines who are superbly trained would run amok and murder in cold blood 24 Iraqi civilians whom the Marines have spent the last three years giving their lives to protect. Does this make sense?

On the other hand, I can relate a story, too - perhaps the terrorists did the killing, and cooked up a video alleging that Americans did it. Given that we know the terrorists have no compunction about killing civilians and given that we know from past experience that the terrorists will tell all manner of lies, the story I've made is a lot more plausible from the get go than a story of Marines murdering civilians.

Mark,

I'm not arguing the fact that we need to let justice run its course, but you claiming that this is all a setup, is just the polar opposite as me saying "It happened!", we don't know, and im prepared to await the outcome.

Now youre other point, that the left somehow wishes to crucify some nice,clean-cut white boys just to make a point is laughable. When you have it in your mind that we are all rabid communists who hate gun, god and the military, thats is all you will find, wherever you look, take your own advice, wait for the judgement to be doled out, and then we can all make points and counter-points.

To me this just looks like pre-emptive rhetorical strikes to smear all leftists (in your mind) when the other shoe drops and the accusations are seen as truth, you want to be able to look back and claim we all poisoned these guys defense, and that they aren't responsible since we all claimed their guilt beforehand, if you think we are all evil, then that is your problem, i love the boys and girls on the ground, well most of them, just like any group there are some real jerk-offs, but i respect their sacrifices.

Mark:

This is what we know:

1. The US military admits marines killed these people. The investigation is into whether or not they had cause in these killings.

2. US military says marines tried to cover-up how these people were killed by lying and saying these people died as a result of a roadside bomb going off.

3. There are two Iraqi children who were inside two of the houses who say marines killed their families without provocation.

4. Reports of investigations by Time and the LA Times have match details leaked from the US military's investigation that the marines went to those houses, unprovoked and in a rage.

As I've said before, I don't like that this happened. But I'm always interested in the truth. From all the reports I've read, it looks like something bad happened.

Mark, all you have to counter the reports is that all the testimony that has been given and cooberates with each other, is not necessarily true. That's true, but since a lot does match up, it certainly looks to be true.

Just because people are Iraqi, Mark, doesn't mean they are liars.

Third,

It is clear from your post that in spite of your claims to be waiting for the investigation, that you already believe it happened and that it was a crime by the Marines.

No matter what happens, however, you are in the wrong - if the Marines didn't do it, then you slandered them: if the Marines did do it, then you still treated them unfairly by presuming guilt. And the fact that you are doing what you are doing vis a vis this case indicates that you don't like the United States military.

Unbelievable. I can't believe the things that I'm reading here.

Let me preface what I'm about to write by saying that I was a soldier until very recently. I've been in combat in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I understand all too well the perils that our service men and women face - the stress, the anger, the fear - and how quickly things can get out of control. It doesn't take much to turn any situation into absolute chaos. If these allegations are true, I'll admit that I understand exactly how those Marines got to that point. My sympathy for them, however, ends there.

What separates us from the bad guys that mean us harm is that we don't do things like this. Strong leadership, training, and discipline are how we avoid these situations.

I haven't convicted these Marines. I'll wait for the facts to come out and the evidence to speak for itself. If they're innocent, then we can explore the implications of the vast left-wing media conspiracy that has tried and convicted them in the press. If they're guilty, then they should be called what they are - murderers at worst, conspirators at best. And if that ends up being the case, I certainly hope that the judge who presides over their courts-martial makes a horrible example of them.

The stress of combat might be a mitigating factor, but there is no excuse - under any circumstances - for Americans to behave this way. There's a lot of talk on this blog about morality and American values. Events like this, if true, deprive us of any claim to the moral high ground.

Tom,

You've got nothing - You've got "officials with access" to a report...a bunch of rumor, innuendo, anonymous sources and, of course, a video which was presented to the MSM by a group I can't find the first thing about...and neither, I suspect, can you because you would have brought it here if you had...

Mark,

If you read up the thread you will notice that i appologized to everyone here for my tone and what I said, its not right of me to judge their guilt.
Was the fact i thought OJ did it proof that I hate black people, was the fact that I thought Lorena Bobbit was guilty beforehand proof I hate women, or knives? What about when I thought Kobe was innocent, does that mean I love the Lakers and hate girls from Colorado? Your logic is simply flawed...

Third,

No, my logic is flawless - and it is based, and you're gonna hate this, on not bearing false witness against my neighbor.

I've been learning some exceptionally valuable lessons over the past six months or so - really coming to understand just what sort of actions I have engaged in, and what they really entail. One thing I've learned is that before someone levels an accusation against someone - and this includes just repeating gossip...you know, like idle chatter about whether or not a celebrity is having an affair - they should think carefully about what they are saying.

There isn't a store where a person can go and get their honor back - once a person has been besmirched, they will remain so in the public mind forever. What we have here is accusations of a quite serious nature against Marines - any soldier who does what these Marines are accused of doing is quite simply a despicable human being...so, be wary of making the accusations...and, hey, how about putting things into context? You know, the context where we're shedding our blood to protect Iraqi civilians while the terrorists are trying to kill Iraqi civilians in large numbers.

As I've said - what is more likely: Marines murdering people, or terrorists murdering some people and trying to frame the Marines for it?

I have read history Turd-eye, if you did you’d know that Reagan never traded, or offered to trade weapons for hostages; that was Warren Christopher from the Carter Administration that met in Paris in 1980 with the Iranians before Reagan was elected and was rejected by same. The hearings that disclosed this was held in the House in 1993. Try reading facts not feverswamp nonsense.
Saddam received his weapons from the Russians, the French and many other countries; the US sold a very small percentage, less than I believe some South American poverty Banana Republics.
Jimmy Carter was responsible for the Shah’s ouster, that happened before Reagan took office.
You have zero credibility when you repeat these wild conspiracy theories that are so easily checked out.

TEO,

No - lets do it by county.

JS, Thank you for your service.

Like you, I believe as I did when Lt. Calley was first convicted in the Press before there was evidence, then given a pass by the Press because Vietnam was a horrible place and these poor kids aren’t responsible; it was Capt. Medina that was a fault, it was Gen. Westmorland that was at fault, it was Robert McNamara that was at fault! When the smoke cleared; it was Calley that was at fault, he was there, he gave the order, he should have been held to account, and so it is with these Marines. If they did what is charged!
If these charges are true, the men should be punished. If there is sufficient doubt about the veracity of the charges, then give the benefit of the doubt to our military. But, can we stop throwing around accusations like Murtha until their fate is decided by investigation, and a Court Marshall if needed?

Tom,
" 98% of the time, the press it right." Do have any proof of that statement? By my calculation, the "media" was about 50% wrong on Katrina alone.
So you'll excuse anyone with a memory from doubting you media sources, like you they're less than credible.

Bane...Are friggin' serious, what warped world are you living in?

Reagan ofcourse was selling arms to Iran. Thats why its called the IRAN-Contra affair, you dolt! Why would we even be selling Iran (an avowed enemy) weapons if we weren't trying to get the hostages back, maybe you're just an idiot and don't realize that the hostages that im talking about aren't the ones released on Reagan's Innaguration, but the ones held by Al Dawa in 1983, such a well read scholar of history should know all about that, but incase you're just a stooge, ill tell you to google it!

You apparently have republicans on the brain, I never made the assumption that Reagan was responsible for the ouster of the Shah, wou would just like to assume im some die-hard democrat, the Demopublicans are just as slimy as the rest of them, so my point again comes back to america always looking out only for its economic interests, and giving two shakes about who we hurt or the lives we destroy, it doesnt matter which party the president belongs to, its not our job to prop-up and bring down tyrants because it may help boost a companies bottom line, or kill innocent civilians because we have an need for cheap oil, so get over yourself!

you wanna talk about history some more?

Bane, by the way I forgot to mention the part about us (well known anti-American lie removed)