Yeah, the US is at risk, maybe not in the next few years, but 5 or 10 years down the line, possibly. Just look at how far "gay rights" and gay marriage have come in the last 5-10 years. It's incremental societal degredation aided by a variety of forces. For instance, the Dutch have allowed significant immigration from Muslim nations over the years. In some Muslim nations the age of marriage for a girl is 9 years old. There are supporters of pedophilia everywhere.

Pedophilia is sooooooooooo disgusting and destructive.

I read the story online - tragic. How can a party like that even be legal?

"now how does it taste" - my guess is it tastes the same as abortion, gay marriage, adultery... all baked in the 'my rights' oven.

Freedom,

What I'm waiting for is for someone to sue in a US court claiming that he was born a child molestor...and then claim benefits under the Americans With Disability Act.

Just watch - it is going to happen.

More than ever, we must fight for a restoration of traditional values.

JJ,

Its a nasty stew, and I hope they will eventually start to choke on it...and they wonder why we're in a "thus far, and no further" mood...we can see what happens, and we are determined to prevent it from happening here.

"Just watch - it is going to happen."-MN

Yeah, and prolly sooner than later.

"More than ever, we must fight for a restoration of traditional values."-MN

Definitely!

Well indeed this is sick. I guess in many countries one is free to run on any platform.

Its also sick that you try to equate liberalism with pedophilia. Are you really that lost and hateful, sick and twisted mark?

Seems that there is no level you would not stoop to in order to advance your cause.

Again, very Christian of you to brand those with different views as pedophiles. I am sure God as well as your family would be proud of you.

One thing of interest though is the alarming numbers of child abusers and pedophiles in the Roman Catholic church. Ironic how you bring up this topic.

Being an agnostic myself I could care less about the Roman Catholic church but as been said many many times the pedophilia in the church is actually less than in the general population. Don't let your seething hatred of Christians cloud your judgement.

Mark, I have no idea where you get the idea that this is a left ideal, and again I have no idea where you get the idea that the left belives " anything goes and that if it feels good, one should do it.". The true left (this does not count any american party) stands against evils like this, they more or less believe "freedom ends when you restrict someone elses freedom".

CJ, that wasn't my point. I have no hatred of christians, just a low tolerance of those born again types that feel they are better than everyone else because they have found god.

My point is that these types like to act all holier than thou and yet they have serpents living right there among them. If their faith is the tie that binds and makes them what they are , then how could such things happen in a holy place such as a church.

Of course there is a wide number in the general population, thats common sense since there is more people there. However the ratio of pedophiles in the church is much lager than the ratio in the general population.

All that aside, the sickest thing was trying to take something that people are disgusted with and try to pin it on the liberals in order to advance a cause. Thats is really twisted and sure some wingnuts will rah, rah, rah with it, at the cost of driving moderates away as they see it for what it is.

Mark, please stop desperately trying to villianize those with different views and stick to the facts.

Deleted - Rather stupid, entirely off topic, and long ago debunked.

First let me say I just skipped your cut and paste job from some left wing lunatic

Now onto what you said.

"Of course there is a wide number in the general population, thats common sense since there is more people there. However the ratio of pedophiles in the church is much lager than the ratio in the general population."

That's a flat out lie. Study after study has shown that the ratio of pedophilia in the general population is higher, in fact much higher than in the Catholic church.

Deleted - Off topic

Cj, it wasn't a left wing lunatic, in fact it was a right wing conservative think tank, sponsored by the republican government to boot.

That's a flat out lie. Study after study has shown that the ratio of pedophilia in the general population is higher, in fact much higher than in the Catholic church.

-- What study would you be referring to?

Do any of you lefties actually read what I write? Or is there some anti-Noonan blog out there giving you mindless talking points?

I didn't say that liberalism and/or leftism is in favor of child molesting - I merely pointed out that the liberal/left errosion of traditional values is at the bottom of this latest, most disgusting development.

It was the liberal/left side which was telling us all to lighten up this past century - don't be so hung up, went the mantra - what is a little nudity? A little pornography? A little foul languages? And why can't we just talk about strange sex practices? Come one, righties, don't be so square - the naked human body is beautiful and sex is just a natural act that we should all come to terms with and be open and free about...

Right back from the start of this, we advised that if we started to release our instincts rather than be governed by our traditions, then we were opening up a can of worms best left firmly closed. We warned you, you laughed and pushed forward...now you've got perverts setting up political parties to advance the cause of perversion.

Now, pray tell, what do you intend to do about it?

I don't think its good enough to just be content that their vote total will be small...you'll still have thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of these monster organised and pressuring and, of course, being able to help each other out of trouble...

This is the vile stew you've cooked this past century, and I propose that you get to eat it.

You people take things too seriously.
Every government with more than two political parties have a "fringe" group. This is one of them.
At the next election they will win 0.001% of the vote, and that will be that.
Now, shall we get back to the important news?

Axis: "Well indeed this is sick. " - I agree 100% with you Axis.

Just for one moment I am going to tackle this issue using liberal reasoning/logic. I must apologize to you Axis before hand as it is pretty harsh.

The liberal me that so desperately wants to come out is now speaking ;-)

what RIGHT do YOU have to tell people what to do? You say it makes YOU sick, so what? If your neighbor thinks its sick for YOU to walk your dog do they have the right to tell YOU not to walk your dog. It makes you sick because of your personal religious beliefs and morals, which YOU believe, not everyone believes what YOU believe. Get off your high horse (I know you think you are better than these people) and stop telling other people what they can and cannot do.

The age for consent used to be 18 now its 16, what right do YOU have to prevent the age moving to 12. How can YOU tell a child not to have sex? A child can on its OWN (because its the Childs body, not yours) decide to have an abortion. So how dare YOU tell someone else’s child not to have sex. The child's own parents don't even have to know about an abortion so what reason could YOU possibly have to force YOUR personal beliefs on someone else’s child.

Who are you to say what a person can and cannot do? What people do in their own homes is none of YOUR business, stop looking over someone else fence, it doesn't harm YOU at all. Go back to living your own life. Those pedophiles can do and say what ever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on YOUR rights and doesn't break the law. So if a group like them wants to change the law in the US let them get sponsorship from the ACLU and argue a case in front of a judge.

I didn't say that liberalism and/or leftism is in favor of child molesting - I merely pointed out that the liberal/left errosion of traditional values is at the bottom of this latest, most disgusting development.

-- Mark, thats a point of some debate. I can point you to a list of over 100 Republican conservatives that have been arrested, shamed or resigned in the past 4 years for sex with underage kids, gay sex, adultry and much more including Republican cases of bestality.

I hate to remind you mark and blow another one of your arguements up, but pedophilia has been around since the dawn of mankind. It has nothing to do with erosion of traditional values. If it did, then in the past, you would not have any evidence of it. More accurately, it is a negative aspect of human nature. Nothing in the world to do with traditional values, christianity or conservatism or liberalism.

Do any of you lefties actually read what I write? Or is there some anti-Noonan blog out there giving you mindless talking points?

-- Very clearly, your words Marke were specifically meant to draw a parallel between liberalism and pedophilia "

Well, lefties, here's your modern world - child molestors forming political parties. Are you going to feel good if they, say, only get 1% of the vote?"

It was the liberal/left side which was telling us all to lighten up this past century - don't be so hung up, went the mantra - what is a little nudity? A little pornography? A little foul languages?

-- Clearly there are limits mark. This comes on the outrage from conservatives because they saw a flash of janet jackson boobies on the superbowl. This, although not appropriate was totally blown out of purportion.

This is the 2000's, not the 50's anymore mark. Society must constantly reevaluate what is appropriate and what is not. Clearly some things that were taboo in the 50's are fine now. Society must determine those limits so as to move forward.

Just for one moment I am going to tackle this issue using liberal reasoning/logic. I must apologize to you Axis before hand as it is pretty harsh.

-- A for effort, but F for conclusions.

The core of liberal values is that we try to live life without infringing on others life, well being and liberty.

Society and courts have clearly ruled the age of consent and it is clearly not a liberal ideal to allow one to violate another personals well being or liberty.

On the other hand, I notice it is often conservative minded people that deem themselves to be of a higher plane of existance and are therefore authorized to violate anothers liberities with their own views or ambitions.

Good work for pointing out this dangerous encroachment of the permissive liberal mindset on the (underage) body politic. And you're absolutely right. We need to return to traditional values to combat this scourge, especially:

• the Biblical guidelines for regulating slavery in general and sex slavery in particular (Exodus 21:7-11);
• the Biblical guidelines for appropriate women's behavior (I Timothy 2:11-15). Someone really needs to speak to Michelle Malkin & Amy Proctor about this;
• the Biblical method for developing a truly caring relationship between father and daughter (Genesis 19:30-38);

Only then will this country be safe from the pedophiles, which you rightly equate as just another branch of the atheist, liberal lobby.

This is the 2000's, not the 50's anymore mark. Society must constantly reevaluate what is appropriate and what is not. Clearly some things that were taboo in the 50's are fine now. Society must determine those limits so as to move forward.

Uh AXIS, doesn't this sound just like what was just said by JJ, mimmiking what a Librial would say? You can't make it any clearer than you just did by falling hook, line and sinker into your own pile of it. I would further explain it but I don't think it's needed.

Axis: "-- A for effort, but F for conclusions." - typical score of a liberal argument, my point exactly. Scary thing is you used the exact same argument on me to defend gay marriage.

Axis: "The core of liberal values is that we try to live life without infringing on others life, well being and liberty.".

Exactly how do you promote well being? Liberal standards lead to promiscuous behavior which leads to deaths of millions - (one example - 2.3 million children worldwide now have AIDS, but I suppose its alright because you know the parents really have the right to sleep around, and how dare we have any sort of law that promotes faithful relationships).

Liberal standards lead to promiscuous behavior which leads to deaths of millions

-- thats a farce, and a lie. Just as many of you conservatives and including many devout christians also indulge in " promiscuous behavior " Just Have a look here for yourself

Just for the sake of clarity; the majority of the sex scandal that rocked the Catholic church would not be technically classified as pedophilia. Many of the guilty priests were having sex with teenage boys, not 5 and 6 year olds as you would tend to think given the title pedophile. Granted, the boys were in their early teens, but that is because that is the age most altar boys are. I would hazard a guess that most altar boys are between the ages of 11 and 15 or so. These were the boys the priests had access to. Coincidently, this happens to be about the same age the Dutch group wants the age of consent lowered to.

The problem for many gay rights groups is that this tends to look less like pedophilia and more like gay men preying on teenagers. NAMBLA in priest attire if you will. The dilemna for these groups was how to condemn the activity without condemning themselves. The answer was to paint it as pedophilia instead of homosexuality.

I wonder how many Muslims will join this party....

"This is the ultimate degeneration of the modern left "

The state of Kansas is one of the most Christian and conservative states in the union. KS has no minimal age requirement for marriage. If you want to marry a ten year old child and the sick fundamentalist parents give their permission, than it is legal by law.

Lets take a look at the assumption that liberal morals are the root of all evil in this world, shall we:

1. Crusades...pretty conservative folks there...although they did have neat little metal suits

2. Capitalism...has caused more deaths, worldwide, including more than 24,000 per day, due to hunger, than 10 Hitlers or Stalins

3. Illegal war in Iraq...200,000 dead or wounded so far, thousands who will be ripe for indoctrination into radical islam.

4. Slavery...can we even get a real number of deaths and lives destroyed by good ole conservative values?

5. Sitcoms...'nuff said

don't play games mark, you know that people are weirdos, if you wanna lay this at the feet od liberals and progressives, then own up for your own follies

Hi axis

Thanks for the link. I have been involved in church life my whole life so know of a number of people who called themselves Christian but behaved totally against the Bible.

Axis: thats a farce, and a lie.

Please define for me what you think liberal standards are.

In the mean time I will rephrase it:
"Immoral behavior which liberals promote as a persons 'right' lead to promiscuous behavior which leads to deaths of millions"

"Mark, I have no idea where you get the idea that this is a left ideal, and again I have no idea where you get the idea that the left belives " anything goes and that if it feels good, one should do it.". Kiwi

Could be that the defense of NAMBLA by the ACLU has a lot to do with it.

Axis,

Guess I'll have to repeat it as it didn't sink in the first time around: do you lefties even read what I write, or is there some sort of anti-Noonan blog out there providing you with mindless talking points?

No kidding its not the 50's anymore....its not the 50's anymore because for the last 50 years we've gon along with your idiotic notion of society defining what is right and wrong rather than adhering to what is right and wrong.

Your attitude has led to this - a political party advocating child molesting. This is what liberal/left thinking leads to.

phnxbmed,

I could just put up a post demanding an end to all verbal obscenities on TV and that would demonstrate to Kiwi where I'm getting this idea that the left is an anything-goes mentality...

The economically-promiscuous behavior of corporatologists, and their apologists are responsible for the starving of 24,000 people everyday. The unlawful killing of many thousands of Iraqi civilians is morally bankrupt, but everyone here is ready to rah, rah, rah for more death and destruction, you people make me sick, you're all hypocrites of the higest order, when you can get your own house in order, maybe then you will have some sort of standing to rail on other people's morals

No kidding its not the 50's anymore....its not the 50's anymore because for the last 50 years we've gon along with your idiotic notion of society defining what is right and wrong rather than adhering to what is right and wrong.

Like adhering to women and minorities being unequal to the white man. What a better place this country used to be. Thanks for reminding me of the good ol days Mark. The 1950s and before were such amazing times. You could beat your wife without going to jail. You could treat minorities like they were not even human. How dare those liberals question these great traditional values that Mark Noonan wants us to go back to.

Or Mark, are there some things you are glad liberals did in this country? Are there some traditions you are glad we broke away from? Are there some parts of the bible (inferiority of women, rules for being a good slave owner, and all the other messed up stuff) you are glad we don't follow anymore?

Unfortunately, Brokeback, Mark will NEVER admit than there is anything Liberal which is good. He hates Liberals with every fiber of his being and thinks that the only good Liberal is a dead Liberal. He also refuses to believe that a Conservative can ever do anything wrong.

You see, Brokeback, Mark cannot see that anyone who thinks with idealism and hope for the world, if it has any Liberal elements whatsoever, is anything but evil.

Like myself. I may not be a Christian, and may think with Liberal ideas, but I have a VERY high moral value system. I do not even drink, and have never had a "one night stand." I belive in love and believe that all can get along, even if we have different beliefs.

But to Mark, because I am "Liberal" I am evil and have no value system whatsoever.

Mark, the college frat boys, who were mainly All-American Conservatives, were usualy the ones who drank and did drugs and partied and got laid out of marriage in college.

Some of the more "Liberal" people who were "nerds" and "good boys" were the ones who HAD values. Conservatives were mainly the ones who threw away their value systems when they were young.

But Mark will never see this, or see that Liberals have ever done anything good for the world, because he has been brainwashed to think that Liberals are evil - period.

He will never admit that Conservatives can be evil too.

So sad, to have such a negative outlook on life, Mark, so sad.

No kidding its not the 50's anymore....its not the 50's anymore because for the last 50 years we've gon along with your idiotic notion of society defining what is right and wrong rather than adhering to what is right and wrong.

-- That's one of the sliiiest things I have heard you say yet. Society is US, you me, everyone. Who's going to decide what is right and wrong if not the people? The definition certainly isn't coming floating down from the heavens above, so it looks like its up to us people to decide as a whole. Or is your point that YOU should decide for everyone.

Your attitude has led to this - a political party advocating child molesting. This is what liberal/left thinking leads to.

-- See, there you go again. A couple posts above you were denying that you were trying to tie a disgusting part of human nature in with liberalism simply to advance you cause.

But thats exactly what you are doing. And I will say it again, just as many, if not more of conservative minded people get caught with their hands down little johnnies pants as do liberals, because it is not relavent to it.

If what you say had ANY truth to it, then there would be no conservatives getting popped for molesting kids or kiddie porn, when in fact there are PLENTY.

Jimmy Swaggart, James Bakker. The more repressed the greater the sin or so it seems.

"Immoral behavior which liberals promote as a persons 'right' lead to promiscuous behavior which leads to deaths of millions"

But JJ, here's the catch: What you see as immoral I might not. Of course pedophilia is immoral, that's one we can all agree on. But what about checking out your next door neighbor who is sunning herself in a string bikini? At one time Jimmy Swaggart would have said, ABOMINATION, YE ARE LUSTING IN YOUR HEART! Then the repressed little hypocrite cheats on his wife with a series of prostitutes no less. And this came out not long after he condemned Jim Bakker's actions as "a cancer on the body of Christ."

So let us be careful not to get our boxers in a knot.

Deleted - vulgarity, slanders, anti-American statements.

Any further posts like that will result in banning.

Holy Toledo Axis. You made my two examples of hypocricy seem rather paltry!

Ash,

But it isn't something we can all agree on - which is why there is now a political party advocating legalised child molesting.

You see, if you go about saying things like "that might be immoral to you, but its not to me", then we will get into a position where some people are advocating some extraordinarily immoral things.

There are people, Ash, who think that children should be treated as adults - after all, a majority of liberals think a 12 year old girl is competant to make a decision about having an abortion, so whence comes this blanket assertion on your part that child molesting is something we can all agree is immoral?

No, Ash, you either adhere to morality, or you don't - there's no half-way house; there is no partial dimunation of virtue.

Brokeback,

Ah, but those things you use to say that the old morality was wrong are, well, examples of immorality in the past. By the standards of Christianity, slavery has always been wrong, as has been treating minorities and aliens badly. We progress, right? We are supposed to try and improve ourselves, aren't we?

The problem with your side of the aisle is that the only thing you view as progress is that which makes human beings ever more animalistic. Its an attitude of "well, since morality can be hard to adhere to, I'll just call immorality, moral and say that traditional morality is evil". This allows you to think you're off the hook - but you aren't, and the more you advocate moral relativism, the more responsible you are for this sort of abomination going on in Holland.

Mark,

I find it interesting that you can slader liberals with impunity and make wild, unsubstantiated claims that liberalism is linked to pedophilia and adultry and immoral lifestyles,

yet when I post a list of over 150 republican conservatives that are indulging in that exact thing, to prove you wrong, you delete it and threaten to ban me.

Are you that afraid of the truth? Most of these have admitted it or been convicted, theres no slander in listing those at all.

Fact is , that list just blew a cruise missle sized hole in your arguement and you could not deal with that fact.

The reason most people have problems with the extreme Christian right, is that they tend to promote the myth that they live clean, upstanding, moral lives, centered around G-d, country and family. They think its so wonderful, that everyone should live and believe as they do. But we're not all cut from the same cookie cutter. And I don't believe that Conservative Christians are any more moral than anyone else.

Having said that,even as a liberal, I think pedophilia is a heinous crime worthy of the harshest sentence possible. I don't believe in probation or counselling, as the perpetrator would be free to victimize again. So don't try to stereotype morality-or imply that a liberal lifestyle leads to this.

Down the slippery slope we slide...

Cut the legal age for sexual relations to 12, legalize child pornography, and sex with animals.

Next they will want to marry their animals!

Think it can't happen in America. Give it time.

Europe is, or rather has been, several years ahead of the U.S. in their liberal ideology, but the U.S. is catching up -- fast -- thanks to the rulings imposed by our activist liberal courts.

We already have The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) which according to Wikipedia:

"...opposes the use of age as the sole criterion for deciding whether minors can legally engage in sexual relations. NAMBLA defends what it asserts to be the right of minors to explore their sexuality on a much freer basis. It has resolved to 'end the oppression of men and boys who have freely chosen mutually consenting relationships', and calls for 'the adoption of laws that both protect children from unwanted sexual experiences and at the same time leave them free to determine the content of their own sexual experiences.'"

Don't know about NAMBLA... Google it. According to the Internet, there is also a women's "auxiliary".

How many "closet" pedophiles are their in the U.S.? Probably more than enough to start their own political movement here!

Who would have believed that the courts would try to force gay marriage on America? They will too if we don't Amend the Constitution to stop it!

Liberal judges, including some Supreme Court judges, already believe their decisions can consider the laws and accepted practices of other nations. Who knows where that could take us!

Sit back and watch it happen, or start working to stop it.

First... Let's get moving on the Amendment to ban gay marriage.

Next... We must stop activist judges from making our laws.

AAR

Mark, conservatives on this site pounced on me when I equated Rev. Fred Phelps with the political right, though he holds many views that some may call conservative, so how do you go about doing the same thing by equating this group to the left? That seems kind of hypocritical to me.

Anyways, there are a couple fallacious aspects to your argument here.

For the purpose of this, I will grant it a given that this organization is on the extreme left of the political spectrum (just as Phelps is on the extreme right).

First of all, you (conservatives such as AAR and Mark, but not limited to them) take the whole "slippery slope" thing that accompanied that Gay Marriage debate. "A man to a man?!?! What's Next!?... A man to a goat?!?!" That argument has no logical validity. You could just be arguing an extreme just to get a point across, but it just makes you look alarmist.

Now to the main fallacy. Actually, the conservatives (and some of the liberals, I must admit) do this alot. This fallacy is the fallacy of composition. Just because some liberals are pedophiles, that does not mean, imply, or suppose that all liberals are pedophiles or that liberalism is intrinsically linked to pedophilia. I am reminded of nice conservative catholic priests and their altar boys. (a cheap shot, I admit, but you have taken your share of those in this post).

Rhetoric like this post merely cheapens the political discourse in this country. You are bringing debate on social issues such as gay marriage in to the gutter, making none the wiser. Are you proud?

AAR,

Keep rapping about your constitutional ammendments, liberal activist judges and yada, yada, yada.

You might be interested to know that there have been over 10 000 attempted ammendments to the constitution since the republic was created.

Only 27 have made it through in the past 200 years. You have a better chance at winning the lottery

Good luck

Axis,

Yep, I gonna' repeat it over and over and over every time I get a chance!

Get used to it... just like I have to sort through all of the repetitive mountain of mush you and your research staff continue to post over and over and over!

Each time, perhaps a few others will wake up and understand what's going on with the Constitution and the activist judges. One thing's for sure, they won't get the education in today's liberal managed schools. (We really need to work on that too. Children deserve a better education, not a trip to and through the liberal propaganda mill!)

Who knows, some day we may luck out and get number 28 and then 29 and who knows where it could go from there. We just need to get the "right" motivated, energized, and movin'!

AAR

AAR, you really crackme up with your constant talk of "liberal activist judges"

Inthe past 20 years, 2 democratic presidents (carter/clinton) have appointed nominees to the courts.

YOU have had 3 republican presidents (regan/Bush Sr./Bush Jr) that have done the same

So, you have had PLENTY of nominees to the courts, more than the liberals have had.

cry me a river.

Georgia Frawg,

Oh, but yes. That it a totally valid argument.

You can deny it all you want, but there is no reason to doubt that it could not or would not happen at some time. Why would the courts discriminate against them 50 years from now as the slide down that slope continues? You are the one who is being naive and denying that it is not a possibility. How can you know the future so accurately that you can say with certainty that it won't happen?

Do you also deny that a father could marry his son, a mother could marry her daughter, a brother could marry his brother, a sister could marry her sister, and so on? Do incest laws govern that?

Well, an amendment takes care of all of that. It leaves marriage what it is, what it was intended to be, and what it should be!

AAR

Axis,

The Dems are the ones blocking President Bush's appointments to key appellate positions by their threatened filibusters, and hoped to block President Bush's two Supreme Court judges.

Why? Because liberal Democrats want to select the judges who will make the law the way they want it. They don't want President Bush to select judges who may not agree with their laws. You can continue to act like that is the way the Constitution meant for our laws to be enacted, but I know better. That was never meant or intended!

I don't have the facts handy, but you are right that Republican Presidents made some mistakes with their appointments which turned out to be among the more liberal judges. I haven't read the history or background on those, however, to know exactly what happened and the reasons.

Hopefully Conservatives have learned from the Dems and will filibuster any future judges who appear to be activist judges. Hopefully, they will insist on future judges who will interpret the Constitution and laws on what it says as well as what it intended at the time it was written or amended.

I'm still waiting on you to come back and defend the "rights" of NAMBLA, and those who want to reduce the age of consensual sex, or sex with animals, or even to marry animals. Who's to deny them that right?

Some animal rights groups already want pets to have the "right" to sue their owner, through court appointed judges. Spain wants to essentially give human rights and standing to apes, chimps, and similar primates.

I would bet that if gay marriage were to stand, the next step would be demands for people to marry their pet dog, sheep, or other animal. I would also expect pedophiles to want to reduce the age at which children can marry.

Are you going to discriminate against them, or are you going to allow them to marry whatever, whomever, and whenever they choose?

Another hypothetical question. Knowing the beliefs of NAMBLA members, and knowing that many potential members would not expose themselves now, and knowing that a gay NAMBLA couple would share NAMBLA's beliefs, what do you think they would teach any child they might be allowed to adopt?

AAR

Georgia Frawg,

I almost forgot.

In answer to your last question... Yes. Absolutely!!!

AAR

Axis,

Do you get credit for deleted posts?

Just adding some more 'diversity' to the neighborhood. Why not embrace those pedophiles that live amongst us? Hey, this is classic equal protection. Gays should be able to 'marry' those they love of the same sex. Pedophiles should be able to 'marry' a 12 year old they love. They probably should be able to 'marry' more than one at once.

Otherwise, we would be 'discriminating' and would be displaying our pedophilaphobia.

And, they should be able to 'marry' Bambi, too, if they wanted to.

Georgia,

For crying out loud, will you PLEASE read what I wrote - what you are doing is arguing about a position you WISH I held in order that you could easily destroy it.

What I am saying is that the liberal/left ideology has led us to a point where child molestors are demanding the right to molest children. This is what happens when you slip into unbelief; as was said ages ago, the worry about unbelief is not that people will believe nothing, but that they'll believe anything that comes along.

The relentless liberal/left secularisation of our society has reduced us to a point where child molestors are not set upon by the outraged citizenry when they seek to form a political party.

The Dems are the ones blocking President Bush's appointments to key appellate positions by their threatened filibusters, and hoped to block President Bush's two Supreme Court judges.

Why? Because liberal Democrats want to select the judges who will make the law the way they want it. They don't want President Bush to select judges who may not agree with their laws. You can continue to act like that is the way the Constitution meant for our laws to be enacted, but I know better. That was never meant or intended!

-- Just as they should when Bush nominates radical right wing "activist" judges.

I remind you that Republicans do the exact same thing when a democratic president nominates an overly liberal judge...

I don't have the facts handy, but you are right that Republican Presidents made some mistakes with their appointments which turned out to be among the more liberal judges. I haven't read the history or background on those, however, to know exactly what happened and the reasons.

-- No they didn't. If the Republican was a moderate, not a fascist neo-con like bush, they he would have sought moderate conservative judges, not fundamentalist christians.

Not even the republican conservative judges are in favor of your views, only the radical right wing ones like Alito.

I have to admit though, that there is some evidence that john Roberts may turn on his handlers and eventually become a moderate as well, so its 50/50 that he would be in favor of overturning Roe v Wade.

The only ace you have for sure is Alito who will rule whichever way his handlers want. Not good odds, considering the rest are moderates and liberals.

What I am saying is that the liberal/left ideology has led us to a point where child molestors are demanding the right to molest children.

-- Mark, you keep avoiding the question, because there no way you can anwer without contradicting yourself.

Earlier I posted a list of over 150 Republican conservatives that have molested kids, committed adultry and have lived immoral lifestyles.

So if those are all "liberal ideals" , who do so many conservatives choose adopt it and molest their kids and others?

Mark,

I would assume an enlightened christian such as yourself finds neo-Nazi and racist groups such as KKK horrible, and that they dont merit time, or attention, or money from sane individuals. But our constitution, allows for these people to speak, and gather, and have picnics on the washington mall, if they get the right approvals. So, in saying that liberal ideals have led to the thinking of these people is silly, these folks exist everywhere, you are upset they have the audacity to come out, using our own framework of the constitution aginst all us moral-eagles, while I may detest your views, I will fight to my last breath to defend your right to say them, THAT is what makes america great, and that is why when the eventual time that a NAMBLA makes a bid to join the political process here, they will be beaten back into the slimy holes they climbed out of, and I will be the proudest lefty moonbat in the world, that the greatest ideal ever created by the geniuses that were our forefathers has again stood up to adversity and triumphed...progress, its the wave of the future!

Well, lefties, here's your modern world - child molestors forming political parties. Are you going to feel good if they, say, only get 1% of the vote?

This statement not to subtly implies that liberalism lead to this. To an extent, it did, just as Conservatism lead to the rise of Rev. Fred Phelps.

What you are generally implying, and AAR flat out said, was that liberal courts and liberalism will lead to legalized child molestation. That, of course, implies that all or most liberals either like or will like child molestation, which demonstrates the composition fallacy, and AAR, I would love to see you argue a slippery slope in court. You'd get laughed out of the room.

Everybody has the right to demand any rights that they want (Phelps and killing gay people, for instance), it is a matter of legislation and the judiciary that determines what rights people actually have, and I am willing to place a $20 bet on child molestation not becoming a right in 50 years, even with the accepting of Gay Marriage.

Mark---Can we agree that pedophilia is a perverse compulsion that afflicts some adults regardless of their political or religious affiliation?
I believe this dark force is present equally in closed and open societies.

I grew up in the '50's and 60's when it was permissable to beat your child into a pulp. It was a less liberal time, when children could not speak out about the abuse and expect help. Sexual abuse of children also occurred, but as in the Roman Catholic sex scandal, child victims did not feel comfortable speaking out. If they did, it was often covered up -children had little or no rights to be heard.

I believe that in a more liberal society-victims of rape, incest and child abuse are able to speak out and get justice in our court system.

Evil and goodness is present in man, I don't believe it is dependent upon a certain religious or political ideology.

no one is arguing that political affiliation has any impact on an adults tendencies towards pedophilia. but what is clear is that liberal judges have been lenient on pedophiles on the past, and the liberal ACLU has supported pedophile groups like NAMBLA.

axis,

Some of us do have other work to do, me included. We'll work on your other concepts later... if not on this thread, then on many more to come.

In the meantime, how about my questions that are more relevant to the topic of this thread (repeated below):

I'm still waiting on you to come back and defend the "rights" of NAMBLA, and those who want to reduce the age of consensual sex, or sex with animals, or even to marry animals. Who's to deny them that right?

Some animal rights groups already want pets to have the "right" to sue their owner, through court appointed judges. Spain wants to essentially give human rights and standing to apes, chimps, and similar primates.

I would bet that if gay marriage were to stand, the next step would be demands for people to marry their pet dog, sheep, or other animal. I would also expect pedophiles to want to reduce the age at which children can marry.

Are you going to discriminate against them, or are you going to allow them to marry whatever, whomever, and whenever they choose?

Another hypothetical question. Knowing the beliefs of NAMBLA members, and knowing that many potential members would not expose themselves now, and knowing that a gay NAMBLA couple would share NAMBLA's beliefs, what do you think they would teach any child they might be allowed to adopt?

AAR

Ever heard of freedom. At least here in the Netherlands one has the right to screw himself up, as long as he doesn't hurt others. Prostitution and drugs are only legal as long as someone isn't hurt or forced. Conservatives always point to the Netherlands as some evil, crazy hellish place. The left hasn't ever been in full control of the dutch government, they haven't even been in the government for 5 years. I thought Christ was a freedom loving person with an open mind. Conservatives apparently do not share the same opinion. The Dutch have limits too, (believe it or not) this party will not get one single vote, it;s just a bunch of crazy pedophiles looking for attention through politics. Look to the facts, we're not spending a single euro on 'The Great War On Drugs'and we have a relatively lower drug using rate and the drugusers' age is going up, you probably won't agree, since a lot of FOX-viewers/conservatives do not believe in facts apart from the ones created by themselves.

Jasper,

Your country is also dying - with a birth rate of 1.6 children per women, you aren't even replacing yourselves...so busy doing whatever feels good that your forgot those little things call faith and discipline which are necessary for a nation to survive. You've got all the drugs and prostitution anyone can want - and you absurdly call that freedom! Meanwhile, the Islamists are making themselves more and more at home in your country...how long before they start cutting off the heads of your whores and druggies? What WILL you do then?

Axis,

I'm not ignoring your question; I'm ignoring your absurd interpolation.

Get with the actual discussion.

kritter,

Of course we can agree on that - but my assertion is that it is becoming more acceptable due to the moral climate liberal/left thought has created over the past 50 years.

Holland, of course, is just more "progressive" than we are - but just as euthanasia and gay marriage started there and have now come here as issues, we can expect that some "progressives" here in the United States will also pick this up as well.

Here in America, of course, we don't form new political parties - what the child molestors will do here is sue under the Americans with Disabilities Act, claiming that they are ill (and, I suspect, they will also claim to be born child molestors) and thus must have protections under American law...things like you can't discriminate against a child molestor in hiring at the day care.

This is the world you of the liberal/left have created - this is absurd and horrifying at the same time. In a normal world, the police would have arrested those perverts as soon as they gathered and proclaimed who they are...in a normal world, when the perverts sue in our courts, the judges would laugh them out of court, and have them arrested...in other words, whenever someone proclaims himself in favor of child molesting, the society would instantly see to it that such a person is removed from any possibility of molesting a child....but, no, you on the left say that everyone has a right to say and do whatever they damn well please...so we'll have people advocating this vile practice, rather than being firmly smacked down by a society which can damn well tell the difference between right and wrong.

This is your world, kritter - how do you like it?

Mark, Leave the Dutch alone, this is exactly why i cant travel in the world anymore without having to think twice where I pull out my blue passport, noone there gives these weirdos any creedance, just like noone here cares what Rev. Moon has to say or his thoughts on how you should handle your penis.

Mark,

We don't like child molestors anymore than racists, but if they wanna speak, then they have the rights to, just as we have the right to shun them from society, just like racists...You know of any NAMBLA members running for office, how about any Klan members, infact the last time we had such a disgusting abboration on our hands, it was Mr. Duke, and he was quite obviously conservative

Eye,

RE: "...know of any NAMBLA members running for office..."

Who knows? Do you think they are going to announce it in public now? It's not safe yet for them to "come out of the closet". But give it a few more years of "liberal tolerance" and "ambivalence" and who knows. It certainly wouldn't surprise me. In fact, I fully expect it to happen at some time; I just can't say when. Look at history. What other conclusion can one reasonably draw?

Considering the number of pedophiles there are, there could be NAMBLA members or wanna-be members anywhere. They could be teachers, day care operators, or really, anywhere they choose to be. Until something happen to make their beliefs, lifestyles, and/or practices public, who would know otherwise.

And gay adoptions -- how many of those "parents" could be NAMBLA members or potential members?

What type of "sexual orientation" and lifestyle would a homosexual or lesbian parent teach to their children? Heterosexual -- to which they object? Or... homosexual and/or lesbian -- which they practice and support? Would a NAMBLA oriented parent teach their children or adopted children that pedophilia (sex with children) is acceptable? Or, would they teach them that the practice was "normal", and "encourage" the children to "explore their sexual feelings"?

What do you think? Really? Not what you want to believe? Not what you feel you must say to be "tolerant" and understanding of others?

What do you really think?

Yes, child molesters, NAMBLA members, bestiality (beastiality -- animal sex) devotees and anyone else can say and speak as they choose. We wouldn't want show any "intolerance" there either.

But what happens when we "tolerate" a behavior like bestiality for example, that most say they abhor and find disgusting? Gradually, people become desensitized to the topic. Gradually people begin to talk about it more and more and become even more desensitized to the concept. The shock effect associated with the practice is gone. More people feel comfortable about the subject and discussing it publicly. People begin to joke about it and treat it as a normal, everyday practice -- true, humorously at first. As the topic become more mainstream and "apparently" acceptable, more people begin to experiment? The concept begins to take on an air of acceptance as we (liberals) "tolerate" the practice. We begin to see the practice included in television shows as "humor". More and more television shows and movies begin to include the idea in their productions -- now as a means to push the concept and practice, and gain public support and approval -- subtly at first of course. Bestiality is now on it's way to being a publicly acceptable lifestyle. Activist groups begin to file lawsuits claiming discrimination and claiming that the Constitution protects their rights too -- they demand the right to marry. Some activist judge agrees and rules that ALL Americans must accept and legalize the practice. We celebrate the first human-to-animal marriage as a man and his sheep strolls down the alter. We pass anti-hate laws to protect their rights.

Suddenly, people begin to wake up and wonder what happened. How could the courts or any rational and reasonable person or judge suddenly claim that the Constitution now affords "protection" and "rights" for a practice that had been against all laws up until that time. How could a practice that has never been accepted as normal throughout history and throughout the history of the United States suddendly be "protected"? The Constitution did not change. The people did not Amend it. Congress and the legislatures did not pass any laws legalizing it. In fact, they passed laws to stop it, but the court said they can't do that! It doesn't matter what the people want. A judge has decided what's best for them! Think about it!

Far fetched. Yes by today's standards, but possibly not at some time in the future. Look at what courts have forced on America against their beliefs and desires already!

Oh, by the way, and I could have included more the typical liberal words like "racists" to discredit the opinions of others, but I'll leave most of them for you.

AAR

eanwhile, the Islamists are making themselves more and more at home in your country...how long before they start cutting off the heads of your whores and druggies? What WILL you do then?

And if the bus drops below 55mph, it will explode! What WILL you do then?

Man, it must suck to live in a state of perpetual guilt and fear like Noonan, holed up making up bizarre theories about how a political party in Holland that nobody (except, curiously, Mark Noonan) cares about is a harbinger of leftist-wrought doom! And how having more Islamic people means the decapitations will start any day now!

Third,

I wouldn't worry too much about the feelings of the Dutch...they won't be around much longer to take offense.

Sees,

And 25 years ago the chances of such a party being formed were?

If you can't see a sequence of events for what they are, then you've really got a blind spot.

axis,

RE: "... there have been over 10,000 attempted amendments to the constitution since the republic was created. Only 27 have made it through in the past 200 years. You have a better chance at winning the lottery."

Hold that thought. You are onto something!

I don't have your research staff to check all of your figures -- 10,000 seems awfully high -- but the point you make is correct. It is very difficult to amend the U.S. Constitution -- almost impossible!

And therein lies another REAL problem -- perhaps the BIGGEST problem -- with your views!

I think I'll save that issue for another time and another thread since others are movin' on and I need a rest.

Stay tuned...

AAR

don't have your research staff to check all of your figures -- 10,000 seems awfully high -- but the point you make is correct. It is very difficult to amend the U.S. Constitution -- almost impossible!

And therein lies another REAL problem -- perhaps the BIGGEST problem -- with your views!

-- It is accurate, there are typically 200-300 a year that are considered. Most never make it off the floor.

But AAR, your second point is where you are dead wrong. Why we will prevail and you will fail.

We, do not NEED an ammendment to accomplish what we seek, its already in place. It is you that needs the ammendment to futher your agenda, so the odds are firmly against you.

axis.

Maybe! Maybe not!

Just what is it that "we Canadians" seek?

Looks like you still don't want to give us your opinions on NAMBLA, bestiality, pedophiles, etc. and defend their Constitutional protections.

AAR

This verse would be considered a good verse to uphold the new marriage amendment between one man and one woman.

Hebrews 13:4.
Marriage should be honored by all,and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

This verse is directed specifically to the gays and lesbians.

Revel 20:8.
But the cowardly,the unbelieving,the vile,the murderers,the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

So folks, you can see where we are at as far as "MORALITY" is concerned in America, It's really sad what is happening.

If people in America still knew what the bible says and what it means, but it's obvious that they don't, and if they only knew where their fate lies in all this blasphemous trash by trying to enforce their sickly de-ranged mentality of homosexuality onto the constitution.....

If they only knew what they are doing to our younger generation..........

If they only knew what Gods eternal destination was for them!!!!!!!!.........

OH MY, GOD HELP AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People we need to wake up and start defending the constitution, the contitution was based upon "MORALITY" and these sicko pedofiles and queers are trying to take control of it, The liberal activist are taking control of america we CANNOT let it happen!!!!!!!!!!!

I listened to a minister on the radio today and heres what he had to say about the whole thing....

Always remember, and I Quote...
The left liberal proclaims about the right christian...

Truth without love......is barbarity.....BUT we should remind the left that....

Love without Truth.......is HYPOCRACY!!!!

You see folks the left is painting the christian people as hate mongers and bigots, we CANNOT let evil prevail.

Folks Marriage is getting an attack from the Forces of Hell.
Decline of Western civilization.
Strength of Marriage is needed.
It's Decimated.Satan wants Marriage abolished.

Folks if this goes into the constitution, It cannot be touched by any judge in the Land,ANYWHERE.

We need to Get up and start energizing people to uphold marriage between ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.

Never been a legal situation that was not a moral issue first, can't legislate morality.

Throw someone in Jail and see if we can change their mind.

People, Christian's must draw the line.

Salt in society,If salt has lost it, stop talking, stop voting, calling senators, if we don't stand up, Then we will be treated with spite, and deserve what we GET.

LET'S JUST MAKE IT CLEAR DEMOCRATS ARE NOT IN FAVOR OF M-O-R-A-L-I-T-Y.

KEEP THE ACTIVIST OUT!!!!!!! ONLY FED CHANGE.PERIOD!!!!!!!

FOLKS IF THE HOMOS GET IT THAN WE ARE DOOMED AS FAR AS MORALITY IS CONCERNED IN THE CONSTITUTION!!

SO GET UP AND FIGHT!!!!!!!

Just what is it that "we Canadians" seek?

-- ?? Not sure what you mean? We canadians want to see you get back where you started from when clinton took office; a world respected country and a leader against tyranny, torture, genocide, and human rights abuses.

Looks like you still don't want to give us your opinions on NAMBLA, bestiality, pedophiles, etc. and defend their Constitutional protections.

My opinions hinge on the legality of such actions. If they are deemed to be legal, I don't agree with it certainly, but it has to be allowed as it is legal.

If it is not legal, then it must not be allowed.

I dont agree with NAMBLA, but they have the freedom to express themselves so long as they stay within the law.

Jeremiah,

Hebrews 13:4.
Marriage should be honored by all,and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

This verse is directed specifically to the gays and lesbians.

-- No it isn't, it is also directed at you christian, god fearing folk that indulge in adultry.

Revel 20:8.
But the cowardly,the unbelieving,the vile,the murderers,the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

So folks, you can see where we are at as far as "MORALITY" is concerned in America, It's really sad what is happening.

-- Yes, but let us not forget that it is mostly christians that against the bible and indulge in this immoral behavior, including many of your priest have a great fondness for little boys.

and if they only knew where their fate lies in all this blasphemous trash by trying to enforce their sickly de-ranged mentality of homosexuality onto the constitution.....

-- We are not trying to force anything onto the constitution, jeremiah, you are the only one wanting to mess with the constitution.

People we need to wake up and start defending the constitution, the contitution was based upon "MORALITY" and these sicko pedofiles and queers are trying to take control of it

-- Perhaps the best place to start is to weed out all the christian sicko-pedophiles you have in your midst. Many conservative christians live these immoral lifestyles.

You see folks the left is painting the christian people as hate mongers and bigots, we CANNOT let evil prevail.

-- Thats only because it is true. 90% of racists and bigots are conservative and many are also christians. Good old fashioned conservative christians used to lynch and murder blacks just some 50 years ago. Perhaps you need to practice what you preach and clean up your own immoral acts before you judge others actions.

Folks if this goes into the constitution, It cannot be touched by any judge in the Land,ANYWHERE.

We need to Get up and start energizing people to uphold marriage between ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.

-- This will never happen. The vast majority of america does not see this as a priority. Further, your christian faith is completely independant of the constitution. The constitution is about basic fundamental rights, not religious views or beliefs. Americas will never allow it to be perverted into a theocratic document.

LET'S JUST MAKE IT CLEAR DEMOCRATS ARE NOT IN FAVOR OF M-O-R-A-L-I-T-Y.

-- And neither are you conservatives, who indulge in the exact ssame immoral lifestyles. Talk to use once you have rooted out the pedophile priests from your churches, at least then, we can take you seriously. Until then, you are basically the same as a person advocating for gun safety in the home and then leaving loaded firearms lying around.

RE: "-- And neither are you conservatives, who indulge in the exact ssame immoral lifestyles. Talk to use once you have rooted out the pedophile priests from your churches, at least then, we can take you seriously. Until then, you are basically the same as a person advocating for gun safety in the home and then leaving loaded firearms lying around."

There you have it folks, straight from the horse's, uh... "mouth"!

Well at least axis admits that the liberals are not in favor of morality and believe that everyone "indulge in the exact ssame immoral lifestyles."

Axis also wants you to falsely believe that -- because of the failings of a few on the right -- all conservatives are just as immoral as the liberal left!

And all you hunters and gun owners note too the cut at gun ownership. Oh, he words it in terms of gun safety, but we all know that in a liberal's view "the only safe gun is no gun" -- except of course for criminals!

AAR

Hi Axis

I here what you are saying. It makes me mad to see people live a double life - say one thing, but do something else. Jesus on many occasions picked a fight with the pharisees ('church leaders' of the time) who had double standards. He did this to reveal what really was in their hearts.

However your argument is weak. For example many doctors have prescribed the wrong drugs, killed people, raped woman, ignored the helpless, scammed people of their money, told lies, molested children. Does that mean all doctors are useless? Does this mean I should ignore the advise from a doctor? Does this mean I should not become a doctor? The doctors who have done the things above have not followed their training or the hypocratic oath.

In the same way Christians who have done the things you mentioned have not followed the Bible, and I would seriously doubt their faith. However don't then automatically dismiss something that a Christian says, because of the actions of other 'Christians'. Jeremiah makes a number of valid points. Argue the points on their merits if you disagree with them, but don't brush them off just because of what you have seen other Christians do.

Cheers

JJ

"AXIS POWERS--QUOTE"

"This will never happen. The vast majority of america does not see this as a priority. Further, your christian faith is completely independant of the constitution. The constitution is about basic fundamental rights, not religious views or beliefs. Americas will never allow it to be perverted into a theocratic document"

The constitution was made by good,moral,honest christian people, which clearly shows the difference(AXIS HYPOCRACY) in todays society..................

today's people like "axis powers" want to bring on the old adamic nature and throw off the armor of God so that they might live an easier more sinful life.........Alas my freind they are paving their own road to a fearful eternity, and how they can ignore Gods warning I will never know?
BUT some day when we meet the author and finisher of our faith WHEN WE MEET HIM IN THE AIR we will surely know that, GOD IS GOOD, GOD IS JUST, AND GOD IS FAITHFUL, AMEN, COME LORD JESUS.
________________________________________________

"Axis powers"

You took my words out of context, so you have twisted it yet again.

Here's what I said!.

"This verse would be considered a good verse to uphold the new marriage amendment between one man and one woman.

Hebrews 13:4.
Marriage should be honored by all,and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immo