Yet another bogus claim of media bias. Doesn't it get old trying to contrive ways to show media bias? This one is particularly inventive...

First off, if we go by your hypothesis that since the Welcoming are the only group who thinks dealing with immigrants here should take priority over border security, then 73% of those polled think toughen the borders should come first, right?

Wrong, if you read the unconcerned description, it seems they do not really care, thus knocking their percentage out to 51% percent.

"Unconcerned outlook:
Not at all concerned about the issue. Generally sympathetic to illegal immigrants. Think their removal would hurt the economy."

But more importantly, the headline says 4 distinct groups of opinion were found in our country, and here they are...

"Ambivalent

Their outlook:
Support letting illegal immigrants stay and work toward citizenship but also the most likely to say their removal would help the economy.

Unconcerned:

Their outlook:
Not at all concerned about the issue. Generally sympathetic to illegal immigrants. Think their removal would hurt the economy.

Hardliners:

Their outlook:
The most urgently concerned and the least sympathetic to illegal immigrants. Think immigrants' removal would help the economy. The only group with majority support for a fence.

The Welcoming:

The most sympathetic of any group toward illegal immigrants and the most likely to believe their removal would hurt the economy. The only group that thinks dealing with illegal immigrants already here should take priority over border security."

No buried lead. Just more bitching and moaning from paranoid conservatives.

"Hardliners:

Their outlook:
The most urgently concerned and the least sympathetic to illegal immigrants. Think immigrants' removal would help the economy. The only group with majority support for a fence."

Doesn't this show that the majority of Americans DON'T SUPPORT A FENCE? That conservative media is at it again!

BUILD WALL ON BORDER: Lawmakers have received hundreds of bricks in the mail recently...

Secure the border first!

Mark, this is just another Bush failures. He thought that bringing forth the immigration card would get more republicans to the polls by firing up the base.

It backfired and now instead of having Democrats fighting Republicans, you also have Republicans fighting republicans as well.

So now that you have opened pandoras box, you are screwed, because either way you side, you alienate a republican faction, which means they will be staying home in November

This whole immigration debate is great for democrats, we can just sit back and watch you fight all the way into november, then step up in the late summer, offer an alternative and take the prize.

Karl Rove should be a democrat, hes been helping us gather stream the way no other real democrat can, by putting forward issues that blow up in your own faces.

Axis, Observer, et al?

-----------

Canada Home to Al-Qaida Terrorists

An official with Canada's spy agency has said that potential terrorists already reside inside the country, and that some have been schooled in al-Qaida training camps.

Jack Hooper, the deputy director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, spoke Monday in Ottawa to a legislative committee studying Canada's involvement in Afghanistan.

Hooper told the lawmakers Canada faces a threat from home-grown terrorists. He said that all the circumstances which produced the London transit bombing are present now in Canada.

Hooper said that many of the home-grown terrorists are Canadian citizens.

He also cautioned that his agency has been able to investigate only 10 percent of the immigrants who have come to Canada during the past five years from Pakistan and Afghanistan.

I can't believe that noone noticed this...

Here are two selections from that article.

This morning USA Today serves up a seemingly authoritative analysis concluding that the nation is divided into "four clusters that are roughly equal in size but vary dramatically in point of view" on the issue of illegal immigration. USA Today dubs the groups "hard-liners" (25%), "the unconcerned" (23%), "the ambivalent" (27%), and "the welcoming" (27%)

and

The most sympathetic of any group toward illegal immigrants and the most likely to believe their removal would hurt the economy. The only group that thinks dealing with illegal immigrants already here should take priority over border security.[emphasis added][emphasis removed]

Uh, doesn't that mean roughly 73% of Americans believe border security is a priority? And doesn't that put the lie to the claim that there is some dramatic variance among the public's point of view on the issue? USA Today didn't just bury the lede on this story, it looks like they missed it altogether.

If you are looking at the math involved here, you see that the writer of this article either can't read/comprehend what he has written or that he cannot subtract.

We can obviously, as the writer of this article did, discern that 27% does not see border security as a priority. That 27% would be "the welcoming" category. What he does not put in to that equasion is the "unconcerned" category, which, by definition, does not care about border security and thusly does not find it to be a priority. That category, according to the article, makes up 23% of Americans.

Therefore, that calculation of "roughly 73% of Americans" that see border security as a priority is inherantly flawed. Infact, according the the figures stated above, it is an even split between those who see border security as a priority and those who do not. That would mean that the people who find border security to be a priority would not be the majority, which would be damning to your (presumably) side of the argument.

Whose bias are we examining here??

Warriornation,

I might add to that that there are far more "potential terrorists" in America.

200 million of them in fact acording to Bush, so he spies on all of you because he sees a "potential terrorist" under every prayer rug.

Seems a little like 40 years ago when people saw "commies" around every corner.

Anyone qualifies himself as a "potential terrorist" , including YOU, until you either prove that you are not, or prove that you are.

The london bombings were done by independant radicals not connected to any terrorist organization.

Keep spinning away Mounty. By the way, MacCarthy scared a lot of those lefties away...bless his heart for doing that, even if the tactics were wrong.

Mark, have you noticed that almost every time you bring up media bias, the first and loudest to post is ol' Tommie Shitley?

Tom must be a wannabe journalist. He, like axis of dumbassery, needs to learn to write first...

Warriornation

You need to start building that wall.

Yes I do Observer. Living here in Calimexico, you're right. My taxes are through the roof, our social services a joke.

What a wonderland. Meanwhile we had more people leave the state then came in (legally) for the first time in 3 decades because people are so sick of it.

Fortunately Canada never has to build a wall because people self select not to live there. It's wonderful to have that built in advantage of not wanting to be desired.

It's like the really ugly girl not having to worry about being hit on at the party.

Tom,

Code put you in a nasty mood, I guess...

At any rate, its a buried story - even part of the welcoming want a wall; so, the real story is that there is a consensus for wall building in the United States.

Axis,

You have no idea of American politics.

Warrior,

Note how axis of dumbassery takes what you post, and totally makes up b/s. And note how stoned Observer can only come up with a smartass retort. Neither have an answer about why there are so many radical Islamists living in their country. Maybe if they're the next target, they'll understand.

Personally, I'd like better border security at both borders. Some electric fencing and sharpshooters would do nicely...

Hey Keefer, great points. You've once again shown a unique ability to bring absolutely nothing to the table.

You know when you've really nailed a point when Keefer resorts to criticizing the literally value of your post. You should be like a blog critic or something. It's a good niche for you, since facts and good arguments aren't exactly your strong suit. But, keep trying. We'll put up with your babble until maybe one day you'll have something of substance to say.

I liked Code, actually. Not great, not terrible. Decent. Nothing near how you describe it. But, you wouldn't know as you haven't seen it, eh?

And Mark, a consensus of Americans want a wall? Where does the poll say that?

It says that the hardliners are the only group with a majority who support a fence. So, yes, there are some in the other groups who support building a fence. Just as there are some in the "Welcoming" group that believe we should tighten the border before dealing with illegals in the country.

Now, I'm going to ask you to really use your brain here for a minute, so hunker down.

USA today says this about the Hardliners:

"The only group with majority support for a fence."

And they say this about the Welcoming:

"The only group that thinks dealing with illegal immigrants already here should take priority over border security."

Now, we don't know what percent of the group thinks this, but it would have to be at least 51%, probably quite a bit more. Most likely not 100%. We don't, we haven't been told.

But, the point is that the country is pretty much split, with two groups forming each side. From the article:

"You're talking about irreconcilable groups that represent substantial parts of the population," says Roberto Suro, director of the non-partisan Pew Hispanic Center. "A compromise that 50% of the population can go for leaves half the public feeling unhappy, and very unhappy."

You claim there is a consenus for wall building. Where did you see this? Had to be another article, cause it doesn't say that in this one.

Now really ask yourself, who's skewing the meaning of these poll numbers? You or USA Today? Remember, you claim something that the article does not give poll numbers about.

Ironically, you've done exactly what you accuse the USA Today of doing. Skewing poll numbers to boost your political agenda.

You quite literally just make up that it says there's a consensus for wall-building in this article. Am I wrong?

You have no idea of American politics.

-- And you do Mark? Is that why a foreigner was able to blow apart about 2 dozen of your arguements in the past week?

Doesnt speak much of your knowledge either I suspect...

Neither have an answer about why there are so many radical Islamists living in their country.

-- Keefer, try opening your eyes and reading why don't you before you speak.

CSIS said "potential terrorists" dummy, not radical islamists.

Radical islamists ARE terrorists moron. Not "potential ones" that can mean you or I or just someone that happens to immigrate from pakistan or Iran or Iraq.

The issue for me is totally about security. Sure, we need to stop the influx but what about the 10-12M already here? Enforcement only will be expensive, not successful ( we're not talking 50-100 companies here but literally 1000s if not 10s of thousands who employ illegals), and damaging to the economu (see Heritage Foundation and NBER research, not phony CIS studies). Then what? The obvious answer is both border enforcement and a system that deals with economic reality. While the Senate bill is far from perfect and needs amending, the House bill doesn't come close to this. I guess I don't fit neatly into the USA Today's boxes but who cares. President Bush has shown leadership on the issue. Congressman "No Amnesty, but Immunity" Sensenbrenner has not.

How ironic! I just finish reading an article in Editor and Publisher about the loss of 2 CBS journalists recently killed in Iraq. This makes the total of killed journalists to 71, which is more than died in WW2. Then I come to this site and see Mark once again whining about media bias! Mark decent men and women are giving their lives so we can try to understand what is going on over there. And you complain because there aren't more "positive articles" about beach volleyball games organized by Iraqi women or bingo games at the Mosque? Shame on you.

Had to take a break from the snide snottiness of axis, Tom, and CO (who makes me want to build a wall on the northern border first). The overwhelming sense of smugness, backed by absolutely nothing of value, is just astounding. These people are intellectual cannon fodder, sent out to be mowed down by their minders, sent into a battle of wits totally unarmed. I guess it's the smug attitude of superiority that bugs me, as totally unsubstantiated as it so obviously is.

But, being back...the Dems have done a typically wonderful job of snowing the country, including a few oblivious Republicans, into accepting their take that "staying" means "citizenship".

Clearly, most have to stay. As a matter of compassion and humanity, as a matter of practicality, as a matter of logistics, they simply can't be 'shipped home'.

I also think it's a little unfair to have a toothless law, one with no stated penalty, and then bring the hammer down on those who break it by suddenly stating that as of a certain date they are felons by doing so.

So why not give a two or three month deadline in which to register for the privilege of remaining here, on a temporary basis, while background checks are being done to determine eligibility for work visas, and then make it a felony to be here without registering? By doing this, you have created a carrot-and-stick approach to registration---which is one of the main goals, anyway, to get these people named and located and in the system---and you have allowed THEM to choose their legal status, as registered or unregistered.

After that, and after the background checks are done, there are plenty of ways to allow people to stay, even as far as allowing them to stay permanently. But under no circumstances should anyone who entered the country illegally ever be granted citizenship---with one exception. If someone has lived here illegally and decided he/she loves the country and wants to be an Anercian, he/she can return to the country of origin and start the process there, with no prejudice regarding the illegal time spent here.

I know that thoughtful and reasonable approaches are not nearly as satisfying to the Sneerers as mindless name-calling and factless accusations, but that is what goes on here when they are not around trying, oh so unsuccessfully, to impress us.

And BTW, USA Today is a useless source of objective information. It's yellow journalism, and strongly lefty. My suggestion is to never cit it at all, as it is consistent only in its lack of reliability.

"So why not give a two or three month deadline in which to register for the privilege of remaining here, on a temporary basis, while background checks are being done to determine eligibility for work visas, and then make it a felony to be here without registering?"

I'm guessing you missed my post when I suggest pretty much the same thing a couple weeks ago.

"These people are intellectual cannon fodder, sent out to be mowed down by their minders, sent into a battle of wits totally unarmed."

If I'm so unarmed, then why spout insults instead of countering the actual arguments I've made in this thread?

It's getting really old to just have insults thrown at me while the substance of what I say is ignored. Say what you want about Noonan, but at least he attempts to make some sort of argument (in this particular thread, not a very good one, but at least he tried).

So, go ahead and keep throwing out insults in an attempt to gain some sort of superiority in this back and forth, I'll stick to making actual arguments using facts.

(sorry if that's too smug, ranta, but when you're dealing with such low-level attacks, it's hard not to feel good about one's position -- but don't get me wrong, I'd rather be challanged. Maybe RS will stop by. He's one of the few who will actually engage in a reasonable debate).

You might want to see this - could be close to a 50% Dem sample by my estimate.

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2006/05/usa_today_immig.html

"I liked Code, actually. Not great, not terrible. Decent."-TS

"Decent" blasphemy. That's a new one.

axis had not "blown apart" ANY of ANYONE's arguments in the past week or at any other time. As the old saying goes, if his brains were dynamite he couldn't blow his nose.

The libs have pulled off another successful propaganda coup in convincing the public, to some degree, that "staying" means "becoming citizens". Not so.

Clearly, for many reasons----humanitarian, compassionate, economic, practical, logistical---millions of illegals cannot be removed from the country. I think the demand for removal is based on outrage that those who disrespect us from the beginning should then be allowed to have full privileges as citizens. It goes against the American passion for fairness.

But they CAN stay, and many SHOULD stay---just without any prospect of citizenship,now or ever. With one caveat---if someone has been here illegally and loves the country and wishes to become a citizen, he or she can return to the country of origin to apply, rhrough the regular channels, without penalty for coming here illegally in the first place. But it would be an "either or" proposition.

Tom, if you ever do make a point, it is hidden in your sneering and sniping. Personally, I see very few points at all in any of your posts, just a general regurgitation of the Ranty Rhodes mantras.

Or is this an example of your brilliant "point-making"?

"Hey Keefer, great points. You've once again shown a unique ability to bring absolutely nothing to the table.

You know when you've really nailed a point when Keefer resorts to criticizing the literally value of your post. You should be like a blog critic or something. It's a good niche for you, since facts and good arguments aren't exactly your strong suit. But, keep trying. We'll put up with your babble until maybe one day you'll have something of substance to say."

73% support border security; they other 27% No Habla Engles.

71 journalists died, more than WWII.

Gee, do you think you might want to QUALIFY that a bit.

Let's see, for example in 1939 there were approximately 10000 televisions in service WORLDWIDE according to the History of Television timeline.

Today, roughly 3,500,000,000. Now, do you think there were a bunch of television reporters out there in WWII? How about radio reporters? I'll bet there were a ton of Internet reporters on Omaha Beach too.

Good Lord, do you ever stop and think before you post this idiocy.

So 71 "journalists" were killed in this conflict. Seems like a very small number to me...afterall it's a "QUAGMIRE" and "HORRIFIC" what is going on so I'd expected 10X that amount!

Tom, I've been making the point about the registration period/penalty for not registering for a long long time now. Sure you didn't get your idea from me? Because I do a lot more writing of my own ideas than cut-and-paste of others, except of course when I cite a quote.

Ash, whether or not good people are dying in Iraq while trying to report on what is happening there is not relevant to what is actually reported here. So much news is being sent back that is simply ignored by the MSM because it does not fit their agenda. The anguish should be that they ARE dying, and still being ignored.

"Seems like a very small number to me...afterall it's a "QUAGMIRE" and "HORRIFIC" what is going on so I'd expected 10X that amount!"-Warriornation

Yup, perpetrated by a "SMALL number of Islamic extremist terrorists who have 'hijacked Islam'". Seems to me, if the number of Muslims who have "hijacked" the "religion of peace" is so small, why can't the American military-the most powerful military on the planet-easily defeat them?? Why is it a "QUAGMIRE"?

Freedom

Finding a few needles in a stack of needles. That's why. It's hard enough finding a needle in a haystack, now try to find a needle in a stack of needles.

Determining friend or foe among Muslims when grouped with Muslims. Not so easy. Progress is made every day however because the vast majority of these people want to live in peace and will continue to turn over those that do not.

Warrior, I was being sarcastic. I should've remembered the /sarc signature.

Do you really believe that Islam is a "religion of peace"? Do you really believe that the enemy in the WOT is really a small number of radical Islamic extremists, and if so, how many do you think there are in the world (give me a numerical estimate)?

Deleted - insulting, vulgar, rude.

Actually Freedom, I do think it is a religion of peace....for the most part. I studied it in college and graduate school as part of an overall discipline in Political Science, History and East Asian Languages and Cultures.

It's a wonderful religion with wonderful people. Unfortunately, just there are crazy Catholics and protestants, there are crazy Muslims. The difference is that they seem to take it to an entirely new level.

For the record, I'm Catholic and believe it wiping off the face of the earth crazy terrorist fundamental murdering Muslims. But I agree also with wiping off the same crazy terrorist fundamental murdering Catholics too (and Protestants, Buddhists, etc).

Sorry I didn't pick up on your sarcasm. With the Canadian contingent here it is difficult to interpret between insanity, sarcasm and their beliefs.

No Axis, Blair did not. Blair said he's not interested in Nuclear tactical bombs on Iran. That's all he said.

When you come about a truthful statement tonight that comes out of your orifice, let us all know so we can take note.

With respect Warrior, I think you need to take a second look at Islam. It's a lot like Nazism.

Islam, Middle East, and Fascism

LGF

For once Warriornation, I agree with you.
This is the essiental problem with religion: too many idealouges are running around wraping themselves in a prophet's words(be it Jesus or Allah)and using is as a means to spread their intolerance and hatred onto others.

Freedom1, you bought up bushs fear campaign lock, stock and barrel.

Theres millions of Muslims in America, gonna kill em all? Maybe start a good old medival age religious war? Burn the non-christian heretics alive perhaps?
Maybe round up all those peaceful muslims here and intern them like they did to japanese americans during WW2?

You're a nut.

Warrior,

Blair said that he wanted no part of an attack against Iran, period. He said bush's idea of using nukes was "crazy". Jack straw called it "NUTS" . Blair is in the middle of near impeachment. His affiliation with Bush is at an end.

That leaves you on your own.

"Not even Bush is dumb enough to belive that all muslims are the enemy like you Freedom1."

Never said that. I said that the religion of Islam is the enemy, just like the ideology of Nazism was one of the enemies in WWII. If we don't address and discredit Islam, then even if we were to kill every Islamic terrorist on the planet today, in 10 years there'd just be another generation of new ones. Btw, how do you type without a brain?...or a conscience?

Freedom1
Ask anyone in the Middle East and they would say the same thing about Christianity.

The problem with Islam is the same problem with Christianity: too many frauds hijacking what was beautiful and spirtual about Islam and turning it into something to fear and hate.

Ash,

It would be better if they didn't go there - especially television. You see, it is BECAUSE there are western television outfits in Iraq that the terrorists keep up their drumbeat of bombs...terrorism lives on shallowness, and there's nothing quite as shallow as a television news report.

It is sad that those people died - but I'd like to see the MSM spill a bit more ink on our military dead...they get all weepy when a reporter - who is extraordinarily well paid and who is protected, at the risk of their own lives, by US soliders - gets hurt or killed, but they ignore the American dead, except to keep a running tally of the number who died, so they can write negative stories about the war, totally ignoring the valor of our servicemembers.

If this sounds like I have limited sympathy for the MSMers, then you are reading this correctly.

Never said that. I said that the religion of Islam is the enemy, just like the ideology of Nazism was one of the enemies in WWII.

-- Not even comparable. Nazism was wicked to the core. Islam is not. To even suggest that they are the same is clear evidence that you are sick and need serious help

Your fight is with a small faction of muslims, radical ones that pervert their faith.

You're forgotten that. If the religion of Islam is the enemy in your eyes, then all muslims are also your enemy.

This is NOT a religious war stupid. Its a war on TERROR. Its not Christianity vs Islam moron.

Terrorists are radical islamics that pervert their faith into something that creates hate and inspires murder.

Terrorists are also radical christians that pervert their faith into something that creates hate and inspires murder.

If this sounds like I have limited sympathy for the MSMers, then you are reading this correctly.

-- Thats very Christian of you mark. Dead american reporters risking their lives to get the truth is no skin off your nose is it? Unless its a FOX news reporter, then you get all weepy eyed.

Pretty sick when you pervert your faith into believing that as long as its not a conservative getting killed, its all good.

These are your kind of people, Axis Powers...

Iranian Dissident's Tale of Horror
At Britain’s Sunday Telegraph, a horrific tale from Roya Tolouee, a leading Iranian pro-democracy and women’s rights advocate, who was brutally beaten and raped, and threatened with having her children burned to death in front of her, by a man who said he believed in only two things—Islam and the rule of the mullahs...

Horrific Honor Killing in Hamburg
German Eurabia has a translation of a story in a German paper of a gruesome honor killing in Hamburg.

"Hamburg - In Hamburg, a 40-year-old man beheaded his wife. Afterwards, he ran, his wife’s head in his hand, to a nearby gas station and turned himself in to police. At the time of the brutal murder, both daughters (6 and 13) were in the apartment of the married couple.

oh foo Freedom1, you are starting to rant and rave just like Jeremiah, huffing and puffing about end times and all that.

I can dig up more evidence of christians doing unspeakable things to one another than you can of muslims doing the same. Beheading? How about christians dismembering one another and burying them in the woods.?

You digging up isolated incidents does not go to prove you case, only proves how desperate you are to show that its really a war on religion, rather than on Terror.

Take a valium and take some deep breaths. Maybe you will wake up in the rear world

"Ask anyone in the Middle East and they would say the same thing about Christianity."-Teenage liberal

Of course they would, because Islam and the Qur'an teaches them to fear and hate Christians and Christianity.

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”

Deleted - anti-military slanders

"You digging up isolated incidents..."-Axis Powers

This is what your Islamic friends have been doing, Axis Powers...

Islamic terrorists have carried out more than 5051 terrorist attacks since 9/11

"This is NOT a religious war stupid. Its a war on TERROR."- Axis Powers

Yeah, "terror" attacked us on 9/11. "Terror" attacked the USS Cole. "Terror" attacked Madrid, Spain on 3/11. "Terror" attacked those victims listed in the link above. "Terror" is waging genocide in Sudan. It's just a total coincidence that these murderers are ALL Muslims.

"Its not Christianity vs Islam moron."

Yes, it is. Wake up.

Axis,

If they were, indeed, risking their lives to get at the truth, that would be one thing...but they are risking their lives to advance themselves in their career.

Drop the fairy tale of selfless reporters relentlessly pursuing the truth...the actuality is ignoramouses hoping for something sensational which will get them an award and a higher paying news gig.

There are a very, very few reporters who are excepted from this (Michael Yon, eg), but as they cannot rise high in the MSM, it really doesn't matter.

And here's the thing, Mark: Without reporters and television crews, the massacre at Haditha may have happened without anyone knowing about it. THAT is why we need these brave people over there. Because these heinous acts were commited in my name and your name and everyone who posts on this sites name.

And I want no part of it.

Freedom,

Good to have you back - as an aside, have you read "Knowing the Enemy"?

Thanks, Mark. Not yet. The book sounds familiar. Who's the author?

Freedom,

Don't have it handy - some lady: seems a new book.

Very fascinating look at the intellectual background of the Islamo-fascists who we fight - I'm only just getting into it, but its already provided some good clarification of some things.

One of them is: the Islamists quote Koran/Hadith stuff to show that there must be war to the knife between Islam and everyone else - the non-Islamists quote Koran/Hadith to show that mutual tolerance is the preferred route...how can this be? According to this author, by means of Islamist cherry-picking various passages.

It seems that our Islamists, in spite of their professed desire to live 100% by the dictates of the Koran, have decided that some parts of the Koran have been overtaken by events, as it were.

At any rate - it is informative and well written, and I recommend it already.

Sounds interesting. I'll look into it.

"One of them is: the Islamists quote Koran/Hadith stuff to show that there must be war to the knife between Islam and everyone else - the non-Islamists quote Koran/Hadith to show that mutual tolerance is the preferred route...how can this be?"-MN

From all of the research that I've done on Islam-including considering the opinions of "the most respected scholars in Islam"-the Qur'an's Sura 9 is both a declaration of war against all non-Muslims and an abrogation of ALL of the peaceful verses found earlier in the Qur'an.

Sword Verse(Qur'an at-taubah 9:5)

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(from link)"This verse, according to many Muslim commentators, abrogates a famous verse often used by Muslims when interacting with non-Muslims", (Qur'an 2:256)

There is no compulsion in religion (la ikraha fi d-dini). The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

(from link) "The Sword Verse...allows the Muslims to compel non-Muslims to accept Islam."

Islamic terrorists have carried out more than 5051 terrorist attacks since 9/11

-- I see, you belong clearly to one of these radical religious hate groups. Those that advocate to kill the muslims before they kill us.

Sorry, you have lost all credibility.

If they were, indeed, risking their lives to get at the truth, that would be one thing...but they are risking their lives to advance themselves in their career.

--Uum, thats the job description of a journalist Mark, any journalist, liberal or conservative. They advance their careers by risking life and limb. I don't get your point, doesn't make a whole lick of sense unless you are trying to indicate that a journalist should volunteer without compensation or career objectives.

Drop the fairy tale of selfless reporters relentlessly pursuing the truth...the actuality is ignoramouses hoping for something sensational which will get them an award and a higher paying news gig.

-- Never said that did I? Regardless of their modivations, they do their jobs and they are human beings, and americans to boot. You should show some respect for that, not spit on their graves.

One could likely say the exact same of you Mark. In your career, are you there to advance and eventually get more compensation? Or are you there without pay, acting as a goodwill ambassador.

Likely the answer is the former, so why ask of others something that you are not willing to do yourself.??

How does a list of documented Islamic terrorist attacks around the world, equate to belonging to a "radical religious hate group"??? Are you mental?

"Those that advocate to kill the muslims before they kill us."-Axis Powers

We are at war. We must take the fight to the enemy before they kill us. When did you loose your instinct for self-preservation?

How does a list of documented Islamic terrorist attacks around the world, equate to belonging to a "radical religious hate group"??? Are you mental?

-- No that website you linked to is clearly an anti-islamic hate site. You have been clearly spending too much time there since you can no longer see a distinction between 1.8 billion regular religious Muslims and the several thousand of them that have perverted their faith into a militant hate organization.

You could have linked to the KKK website, it has about the equilivant credibility.

We are at war. We must take the fight to the enemy before they kill us. When did you loose your instinct for self-preservation?

-- Agreed. Too bad you are too stupid to see who the enemy is. Its the radical islamics, not the peaceful ones.

Good thing you werent fighting in WWII, you would have exterminated all those in germany instead of just the nazis.

"No that website you linked to is clearly an anti-islamic hate site."-Axis Powers

It's just a list of Islamic atrocities. You sound like a Holocaust denier.

"Good thing you werent fighting in WWII, you would have exterminated all those in germany instead of just the nazis."-Axis Powers

No, I would have exposed and descredited the evil, violent ideology of Nazism before Hitler had a chance to wage a war in which he exterminated 6 million Jews-you know, like what Iran's president is trying to do, today.

The real enemy is the ideology of Islam. It must be exposed and descredited in order to win the War on Terror.

Waging a war on the Islamic ideology is much more humane than just trying to "kill 'em all".

Axis,

No, they don't do their jobs - that is the problem; because they are so miserably incompetant, they are actually costing lives over in Iraq. If they would just tell the truth, then the Iraq campaign would have been over a year or more ago...

My sympathy is for the innocent Iraqi civilians and the brave Iraqi, American and coalition forces who are paying a blood price so that the evening news can have a sensational explosion to show.

It's just a list of Islamic atrocities. You sound like a Holocaust denier.

-- What B.S. Its clearly a hate site, every single things on that site is specifically there to discredit and demonize muslims. Its sole purpose is to generate contempt hatred and intolerance for muslims, all muslims.

Its clearly, without question a hate site the same as the KKK site or the Neo-nazi site etc.

Holocaust denier, give me a break. You have a total Hitler mentality. You don't want to simply stop radical fundamentalism, you want to exterminate all muslims. You are sick in the head pal.

You are very confused, and clearly very disturbed. Its fortunate you do not serve in Iraq, or we would be reading about you storming in and killing innocent women, men and children, because all Iraqis are enemies in your eyes.

Mark,

Your comments tend to indicate that reporters there are somhow squelching good news from flowing forth from Iraq?

They are not. You don't hear much good news because there is not any. I know people that have recently returned from Iraq and I asked them what it was like, "Absolute Hell" and also if the news reports were telling the whole story and the reply was "They're not telling half the shit going on over there" And thats from a republican voter serving.

You keep acting like the MSM is a big liberal conspiracy to discredit the conservatives. It is not. MSM is mostly centralists. If it was liberal, you would not have seen many anti-clinton articles during his 2 terms. Instead, they were everywhere. Every angle of impeachment, monica and other boo boos were very well documented.

So your liberal MSM ideals just dont hold water.

If anything, they are laying down for this administration reporting on only a fraction of the bad news and things going on.

The MSM is the only thing holding your poll numbers up when they are. If they were to unleash on you, like they did to clinton, you would be totally hooped as this administration has hundreds of times more secrets, boo boos and illigal acts then clinton could possibly have imagined..

Axis Powers,

Clearly you want to cover up Islamic atrocities and just ignore them by claiming "it's a hate site". Those victims are dead. They were murdered by Muslims. Why do you want to cover up their horrific atrocities??? That's disgusting! Then again, you said you would like to live under Stalin. Stalin killed millions, so what's a few more millions, eh?

Central Command had Robert Spencer in for consultation on Islam. This is what he had to say about Islam recently:

"Of course I do not ignore in the least the broad mainstream of peaceful Muslims, but I have repeatedly pointed out that within the various theological and legal traditions of Islam, they do not have much of a case. All the schools (madhahib) of Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh) teach violent jihad and Sharia supremacism, with some minor variations. Accordingly, Ibn Warraq is correct when he says that there are moderate Muslims, but there is no moderate Islam.

This bears repeating: there are moderate Muslims, but there is no moderate Islam."

Freedom1, you are clearly sick and need some strong medication and counselling. Clearly you do not know what a hate site is. If you did, you would immediately recognize that as one. All those that are "dead", did not ALL die as a direct result of perverted islamic faith. The arguement is as stupid as lumping all of historys murderers and killers and pschopaths that also happened to be christian and then putting together a christian hate site like that one and saying the same think about christianity as you do about islam.

You clearly no NOTHING about Islam or the Muslim faith, aside from reading islamic hate sites and cherry picking proverbs from the Qur'an.

I know several muslims and they are all peaceful people living ordinary existances. They are deeply spiritual and devoted to their faith, same as many christians.

You are advocating Genocide Freedom1. Wiping, every muslim man, woman and child off the earth. Just like Hitler wanted to do to the Jews. You are exactly like him. You see something you don't understand and it turns into blind, uncontrollable hate where you just want to eradicate it from the Earth.

It Hitler was NOT a christian as mark contends, then neither are you freedom1, as you advocate the same things he stood for and your very ideals go against what the bible teaches.

I certainly hope none of you others here agree with this wingnut that the only answer is to commit mass genocide of those not of the christian faith.

I can clearly see thoughm that you all are a big bag of mixed fruit, all lumped up into the conservative banner. We have mark, the christian idealist, Jeremiah, the fire and brimstone breathing funamentalist, AAR the fascist, Conservative to the core the slavemaster, and then freedom1, the genocidal psychopath

Very enlightening.

Freedom said:

"Or is this an example of your brilliant "point-making"?"

That was in response to Keefer. There is no point in dealing with him.

Mark said:

"No, they don't do their jobs - that is the problem; because they are so miserably incompetant"

I find it hard to watch a guy who just took the information from this poll and said there is a consensus for wall building criticize journalists over in Iraq. Really hard.

Freedom1,
I would just like to say thank you you for further conferming my beleif that the "Christian" right and the Islamo-Fascists are really the same thing but wrapped up in a different religion. Both are frauds doing anything they can to make religion look like a laughing stock and a vechile for intolerance and hatred, both sides are advocating violence, and both sides are williing to start a new Crusade for their God.

Get some help. I'm serious...................you need some help

Mark:

It is your site and it is up to you what to include and what to exclude. Just allow me to make the point that I find what you say about brave journalists doing a dangerous job in Iraq is just as slanderous as you considered my comments about the military. Of course reporters hope to advance their careers by reporting there. It is also a great way for military officers to advance theirs, no?

Axis,

In Markspeak, MSM equals anything that he disagrees with. Here are some I think he accepts: The Daily Standard, The Washington Times, and Faux News. And of course every bit of drivel from Rush.

Ash and Axis have already become the Judge and Jury on Haditha now too.

It's amazing how good they are on convicting conservatives and our military without ever having things actually be fleshed out with all of the facts.

Very talented people you two are. VERY talented.

" I can clearly see that you are all a big bag of mixed fruit"

Well, I can clearly see that you "Axis powers"
are a big bag of concrete all mixed up and set!!!!

"You are advocating Genocide Freedom1."-Axis Powers

No, I'm not. I don't want to kill any Muslim, except those who are actively engaged in terrorism against others.

Islam is an evil, violent religion. That's the truth. It's an awful truth, but it's the truth. No amount of name-calling will change that. If the world does not confront and descredit the ideology of Islam in the present, then we will never win the War on Terror because Islam will simply produce generation after generation of new Islamic terrorists.

Axis Powers said, "Nazism was wicked to the core."

Should I accuse YOU of GENOCIDE now, Axis? Should I accuse YOU of wanting to kill every man, woman, and child who believed in Nazism? Oh, wait, I CLEARLY SEE that you don't really believe that Nazism was "wicked". That's why you chose the name AXIS.

Teenage Liberal,

I hate to break it to you but there have been some violent religions throughout the history of the world. Islam is one of them. I'm just pointing it out. Research Islam before pontificating about it. Here are a few facts about Islam to get you started:

1) Did you know that the Nation of Islam has nothing to do with real Islam?

2) Islam considers women to be inferior to men. Islam also allows husbands to beat their wives. (Qur'an 4:34)

3) Muhammad practiced slavery. Muslims have been enslaving blacks from Africa for centuries. Muslims STILL HOLD BLACK SLAVES IN AFRICA, TODAY. RIGHT NOW.

4) Islam is racist against blacks.

(Ishaq:243) “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom.”

(Qur’an 9:61) “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”

5) Islam condones deception. It is NOT a sin for Muslims to lie to non-Muslims.

(Qur’an 66:1) “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

(Bukhari:V4B52N268) “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”

(Bukhari:V7B67N427) “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”

Well, I can clearly see that you "Axis powers"
are a big bag of concrete all mixed up and set!!!! Posted by: Jeremiah

LOL!
:)

Freedom1,

Pretty funny eh! I thought so to.

But ya know I really feel sorry for axis:(, He really needs the Lord, really bad!!

His soul is "crying out" because he has lost control!!!

It really is a shame!, but for right now all we can do is pray for him.

Ya know I have seen other's about hundred times worse than axis, some people explain that it's dope but in reality it is satan that has taken over them because, God has delivered them unto a reprobate mind.

So let's just pray for axis, and get him on another subject or something.

Freedom1, I will tell you the same as I have told AAR, keep up the good work!!!

"But ya know I really feel sorry for axis:(, He really needs the Lord, really bad!!"-Jeremiah

Yes, I do too. Axis really does need the Lord. I will say a prayer for him tonight.
:)

"Ya know I have seen other's about hundred times worse than axis..."-Jeremiah

Yeah, me too. What's weird is that all of these other people seem to say the exact same things as Axis about religion, war, conservatives, media bias, etc. Are they all reading from the same playbook?

"Freedom1, I will tell you the same as I have told AAR, keep up the good work!!!"-Jeremiah

Thank you. You too!
:)

Ash and Axis have already become the Judge and Jury on Haditha now too.

It's amazing how good they are on convicting conservatives and our military without ever having things actually be fleshed out with all of the facts.

-- Actually, even republicans are coming forward now, including bush and apoligizing and saying they will try and do something about it.

The main point is that there was SERIOUS attempts by the pentagon to cover this up, including cover stories stating that they all had weapons and that they were all killed by IED's

The pentagon HAD to investigate when Time uncovered the scandal to the nation. They now have nearly completed it and there is NO doubt it happened, only to determine who was responsible for what

Today, marines shot and killed 2 women, one pregnant and on her way to the hospital to give birth. Shot dead in their cars, their crime: Wanting to go to the hospital to deliver a baby.

Sick.

There is also at least 2 more civilian slaughter investigations under way, including on in March where marines are alleged to have entered several houses and shot and killed entire unarmed families, then burned the homes to cover it up and shot all the farm animals outside.

Sick.

Freedom1,

No, I'm not. I don't want to kill any Muslim, except those who are actively engaged in terrorism against others.

-- Now you have changed your tune and spun on your head 360 degrees. Just a couple posts ago, your tune was that this was a war on Islam, all Islamics.

Flip Flop once your genocidal urges slip out

Islam is an evil, violent religion. That's the truth. It's an awful truth, but it's the truth. No amount of name-calling will change that. If the world does not confront and descredit the ideology of Islam in the present, then we will never win the War on Terror because Islam will simply produce generation after generation of new Islamic terrorists.

-- This is your personal opinion and it is NOT supported, considering the 1.8 Billion Muslims in the world and only one tenth of one percent are violent fundamentalist terrorists.

There are more christian terrorists and militant groups in the world than there are Islamic ones. You just like to ignore that little ugly truth and only concentrate on the non-white terrorists.

Your war on terror is clearly colorblind.

Freedom1,

Islam is not the only violent religion in the world... Christianity is far more violent.

Deuteronomy 6:15 7:5 12:2-3 13:6-10 17:2-7

numbers 21:34-35

2 Chronicles 15:13 19:2

psalm 2:8 5:5 59:8

Jeremiah 48:10

Luke 19:22-27

John 3:36

1 Corinthians 5:9-11

TITUS 1:10-11

Jude 1:5

Freedom1,

Heres some good reading on what it means to be a muslim for 99% of them.

http://www.crosscurrents.org/hassan.htm

It comes from an actual muslim and a accomplished one at that , not a ignorant christian that designed that islamic hate site you have been frequenting.

Axis...so you decided on your own that Christianity is "far more violent" based on some bible passages.

Wow, now that is research I tell ya. Amazing stuff, truly amazing.

Not just more violent, but "far more violent".

Anything else you would like to share with us?

Yes, christianity is more violent than islam. Many more violent and war mongering scriptures.

But, I am not a violent person, because I am not a fundamentalist that focuses on those scriptures exclusively.

This is the same for the vast majority of muslims.

You are doing the equalivent of taking one christian racist group or militant group and and trying to say that thats evidence that all christians are violent and the same

Axis,

Just how did you get through life knowing so little about so much?

Try independent thought - it only hurts the first time you do it.

Axis Powers,

"-- Now you have changed your tune and spun on your head 360 degrees. Just a couple posts ago, your tune was that this was a war on Islam, all Islamics."

It IS a war on Islam, you moron. It's a war on the ideology of Islam. Are you too stupid to understand that this war WON'T be won on the battlefield??? The War on Terror will be one when people are educated about Islam and discover the truth about Islam. Once people know the truth about Islam, then Islam will be descredited and abandoned. The war will be won.

"-- This is your personal opinion and it is NOT supported, considering the 1.8 Billion Muslims in the world and only one tenth of one percent are violent fundamentalist terrorists."

Making up facts again, Axis Powers? The truth is that there are 1.2 billion Muslims, not 1.8 billion. Your claim that only a tenth of one percent are terrorists is laughable. Where's your proof? The entire Middle East is a violent, third-world cesspool where human rights are practically non-existent. Stonings, hangings, beheadings, amputating hands, amputating feet, cutting out tongues, rape, floggings, are all common occurrences in Middle East countries which are governed by Islamic Sharia Law. Peaceful??? Try nightmarish!! Haven't you done any research at all???

"There are more christian terrorists and militant groups in the world than there are Islamic ones."

Name one.

"Your war on terror is clearly colorblind."

Thanks. I don't like Islam's racism towards blacks or Jews. Racism is wrong.

"Islam is not the only violent religion in the world... Christianity is far more violent."

Bwahahaha! You have been condemning me for saying Islam is violent and now you've just done the SAME THING by calling the entire religion of Christianity violent. Lol. Priceless hypocracy! I see see your genocidal urges are showing.

"It comes from an actual muslim and a accomplished one at that , not a ignorant christian that designed that islamic hate site you have been frequenting."

Ex-Muslim Ali Sina explains why he left Islam on his well-respected website Faithfreedom.org. Read his testimony on why he left Islam as well as the testimonies of dozens of ex-Muslims.

"You are doing the equalivent of taking one christian racist group or militant group and and trying to say that thats evidence that all christians are violent and the same."

I'm not. I'm not judging Islam by the actions of the terrorists. I'm judging Islam by the Qur'an and the Islamic Hadiths. I'm judging Islam by what the "prophet" Muhammad did. The Islamic terrorist attacks which are occurring in dozens of countries all over the world are happening because these Islamic terrorists are doing what Muhammad did and they are obeying what the Muhammad said to do in the Qur'an and Hadiths. In short, the terrorists are obeying Islam quite well. The Islamic terrorists are "good Muslims".

Try independent thought - it only hurts the first time you do it.

-- You should practice what you preach, all I see you doing is parroting right wing talking points, then when they get blown out of the water and exposed as wrong, you have no opinion.

" You should practice what you preach, all I see you doing is parroting right wing talking points, then when they get blown out of the water and exposed as wrong, you have no opinion."

Pot meet kettle

The War on Terror will be one when people are educated about Islam and discover the truth about Islam. Once people know the truth about Islam, then Islam will be descredited and abandoned. The war will be won.

-- Oh boy, that is so DUMB, its actually funny. Not even Bush is dumb enough to believe that whopper.

So let me get this straight. You think that you are going to convince 1.8 billion muslims to abandon their faith and turn to christianity?

ha ha!!!

Islam will be discredited... by you, LOL

Muslims dont give a rats ass what Christians think of their faith as long as they don't insult it.

You've been watching too many movies of playing with your GI Joes for too long.

The entire Middle East is a violent, third-world cesspool where human rights are practically non-existent. Stonings, hangings, beheadings, amputating hands, amputating feet, cutting out tongues, rape, floggings, are all common occurrences in Middle East countries which are governed by Islamic Sharia Law. Peaceful??? Try nightmarish!! Haven't you done any research at all???

-- You're right. the western world is far superior with shooting, murders, rapes, dismemberments, drug killings, sodomy, polygamy, adultry, pedophilia and all that other fun stuff we read about in the news every day.

Name one.

-- Do you one better, heres a list of some

Bwahahaha! You have been condemning me for saying Islam is violent and now you've just done the SAME THING by calling the entire religion of Christianity violent. Lol. Priceless hypocracy! I see see your genocidal urges are showing.

-- Nope, never condemned you for saying Islam has some violent aspects, I condemned you to concluding that ALL of Islam was violent and that ALL Islamics are violent or capable of violence.

I'm not. I'm not judging Islam by the actions of the terrorists. I'm judging Islam by the Qur'an and the Islamic Hadiths.

-- Why not judge them accurately by looking at the many peaceful muslims out there rather than being a fundamentalist and cherry picking some violent passages from the Qur'an?

You talk about all the violence in Islamic countries, but conveniently neglect to consider the many more violent countries such as south american and african ones that are pre-dominately christian.

You cherry pick the violent parts just like Bush, you should work for him, hes always in the market for more sociopathic, genocidal people