For the most part it was ok. I was not overly big on the part where he referenced all the fallen soldiers being the reason why the mission in Iraq must continue. That was kind of a dumb statement.

The other dumb statement was by Rumsfeld, once again making reference to 9/11 when speaking of the fallen soldiers as though to refresh a little pre-war propaganda that the soldiers are over in Iraq because of 9/11.

That part reminded me of that poll taken a short while ago that showed that over 80% of the soldiers in Iraq believed that they were there because Saddam had been involved in the 9/11 attack. When asked why they believed that, they were told that it came from their superiors. Pretty sad, when you have to fool and lie to your men and women dying in battle isn't it?

Isn't anyone else here bothered by that "confront our adversaries abroad so we do not have to face them here at home" talking point? Doesn't that seem cowardly? Sure, it keeps the mess and expense for Americans down, but it has always struck me as "let's attract al Qaida nutcases to an uninvolved country so anonymous brown people suffer the 'collateral damage' instead of Americans." It never was the Iraqi people's fight. It was never even the Republican Guard's fight, as many neocons are now saying we shouldn't have disbanded it.

That "over there so not here" rhetoric didn't play out too well for Blair. But again, the Iraqi people NEVER has anything to do with al Qaida, so why should they bear the brunt of tens of thousands of innocent dead, just because we don't want to "face them here at home"?

It sounds advantageous. But it just doesn't seem fair.

Excellent post congressive, well said.

I am so glad my daughter is serving under great leaders like President Bush and SecDef Rumsfield. They both gave wonderful speeches honoring the sacrifices of those who have served, are serving now, and to the many who have paid the ultimate price to keep America free.

Axis, Con, Canadian, and the rest of the moonbat nation...sleep tight while the brave WOMEN and men of the US military protect your sorry butts...and keep believing the liberal media...it worked so well in 04' for ya'.

May God Bless America and President Bush (you know the guy who got more votes than any President in the history of American elections).

Thanks for the condescending pat on the head, Neb, but will God bless something so inherently unjust? I figured God would bless a nation and a president who fed the poor, healed the sick, turned the other cheek, fed it's enemy when he was hungry and gave him drink when he was thirsty. I thought God blessed the meek, the peacemakers, the merciful. I thought God blesses those who "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".

Please correct me if I am wrong.

DNC: DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T!

Silly progressives. Such a lovely view of war you have:

Never mind that other people of other nations get the same opportunity to shoot their mouth off and throw forgranted liberties into the epitaphs of patriots who gave it to you in the first place. Or the ones lucky enough to come home that are called murders and baby-killers, just so the enemy doesn't inherit those titles inversely.

Never mind that terrorists will kill "infidels" ala equal opportunity style, without regard to origin, sex, position, or age.

Never mind those stupid simple Iraqis. There were enough for Saddam to slaughter for at least another decade? Am I right?

Never mind our idiot President. How stupid of him for wanting to throw the first punch and keep the images of another 9/11 off your TV sets.

Never mind that al-Quida's operatives, had they a soul, are free-thinking and could choose to stop fighting and killing their countrymen for sake of media coverage should they choose.

Never mind that this isn't Medal of Honor, or Halo, and you can't just reset after you die. Or that it isn't Hollywood and every war movie have a frosted ending. Real life, real world, this is it.

You guys can't have lived though any previous war. My grandfather faught in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I see his eyes well up when he talks about the savagery of it, of war, and yet how he always somehow knew he was there for a reason. And no amount of your propaganda or your rhetoric will cause him, or any self-respecing veteran to sacrifice his patriotism and his courage to satisfy the frosted fantasy image of war that some would have you believe.

Wake up, progressives. True evil exists, and no amount of diplomatic frolicing or pacifism will qwell it. Evil will never dies, and thus, there will always be the possibility of war.

God forbid we take a stand against it and against you.

Con,
I thought using the G word would smoke you out. You progressive commies are so predictable.

Like I said sleep well, my daughter and her girlfriends have your backside covered.

By the way, I'm an agnostic Native American...God Bless America and long live President George W. Bush.

nebraska militia: is that you ken mehlman? karen hughes? the cut and paste talking points give it away.

Has anyone reminded you folks that plain and simple, we (anti-American lie removed).

let me make a few points about Jd's emotional, but misguided assertations:

1. I dont call anyone a baby-killer without proof, you better pray (unsubstantiated, anti-military rumor removed). And as a proud american, I will whine and bitch and moan until everyone, has everything they need...plain and simple.

2. terrorists kill without discrimination...(anti-American slander removed).

3. Iraqis have electricity shortages still, 3 years after the invasion, in 130 degree heat, they face daily bombings, tit-for-tat killing, lack of potable water, they are subject to random searches in the middle of the night, and american corporations who are not held responsible to iraqi laws...can make an otherwise sane Iraqi ask whether rape-rooms and killing chambers ain't as bad (anti-military slanders removed)...am I right?

3. If he wanted to avenge 9/11, how about focusing on one goal at a time, where is Osama, where are the WMDs, where are the responsible adults to watch out for Rummy and his "boys will be boys" club?

4. Yes, I am sorry we can't hit reset either, maybe we should think about that the next time we decide (anti-American slander removed), maybe we should ask what will be the eventual outcomes for boys and girls forced into life altering situations they can never escape, man i wish we could call "do-overs" (anti-military slanders removed), have you ever seen what white phosphorus does to a body?

5. I respect anyone who makes a sacrifice for something bigger than themselves, so you can tell your grandfather, Thank you, from a well-meaning God(s)-less heathen, but ask him whether the horrors of war are worth it when we can't even explain why we are fighting...is it freedom, is it WMDs, or is it some other opaque ideal that those who can't justify their actions wanna use this week, you aren't allowed to invoke patriotism without the balls to back it up, so explain yourself!

5. I've been awake, and I am sick at the state of this great nation, (anti-American slander removed), we call the rest of the world backwards, when it is us who can't seem to find any sort of balance within ourselves, maybe thats why we have the highest infact mortality rate of any industrialized nation in the world, outside of Monrovia, maybe that is why we can't find God(s) anymore, because our leaders have made it easier to believe in chaos than have any faith that our heavenly father cares anymore, I have faith in what I see, and what I see is a dispassionate society more concerned with measuring (vulgarity removed).

(Ed note: really, we don't allow the propagation of anti-American lies or slanders on our military here on this blog. Take that nonsense to Democratic Underground of MoveOn, if that is what suits you)

Congressive- I enjoyed your posts; very thought-provoking and nuanced. Has anyone ever noticed that the neo-cons really can't handle nuanced arguments (just short sound bites like "bring it on"). When faced with a well-thought out diatribe that is obviously written from the heart and is searching for answers about what America stands for, the neo-cons don't have the answers-so they just reflexively attack the message and the messenger. Pretty pathetic---all of you just sitting there waiting for GWB's next soundbite, so you can feel manly and patriotic.

pretty sharp and devastating rebuttal. good stuff TEO.

Axis,

How much for each post? Is there an incentive for volume?

3rd Eye wrote, "I am sick at the state of this great nation, we brutalize and subjugate people for our own economic gains"

Yup, we are a mean and evil empire. Why would you want to even be here?

Jeeessh.

Third eye blind,
I see you hang out at DU and KozLand.

If America is so evil and brutal why does all the world want to come live here?

24,000 a day die of hunger?...you mean't die from abortions didn't you?

Might I also you remind you Saddam was removed after approval of the Security Council in UN.

God Bless America and President Bush.

LeMano, Simple...it's my country to fight for, just because theives and liars have wrestled control from rational people, doesn't mean I take my ball and move to France, instead I fight right here for my God(s) given rights...capiche?

Nebraska, Yes, ive been known to check-out many sites, did you notice that i am also a commentor at RedState, or Shopfloor.com did you havea point to make here, or just proving that you can infact use a search function?

secondly, it is against international law to lie or misrepresent your case in the UN, I would ask you simply, why did we goto war in Iraq...was it the same reasons we used to get congressional or SecCouncil approval?

as far as abortions, HAHAHAHHA the Christian Right wishes they had numbers like that to rail against, no those numbers are due to good ole fashioned malnourishment, at the hands of the benevolent nations and their international monetary policies...we loan them billions for construction, which ends up paying American contractors and the elite of those countries, leaving debts that can never be paid by the citizens, thus creating a defacto slave state...check up on Indonesia, Venezuela, Panama (pre-torrijos; read: United Fruit Company) or any number of other "failed" states we have propped up, or brought down

3 I's:

I see you have evoked the "trump card" from LeMano and Nebraska Militia: America: Love it or Leave It. That tired old aphorism goes back to the Viet Nam era and probably before. We're the greatest country in history and others have died for our freedoms, but if you disagree with US, get the hell out. They never seem to get the hypocricy of this.

If there was a referendum today I suspect upwards of 70% would vote to get our silly as*es out of Iraq and the Middle East

Ash,

Come on - if even half of Third Eye's statements about America were true, then we'd be the worst nation in human history...we'd be a place where millions were trying to flee, rather than get in.

Given that America is in no way, shape or form as Third describes it, we on the right must presume that he just has an irrational hatred for the United States - and thus they question: why stay in a place you hate? If I hated it here, I'd leave...

congressive,

Indeed - and under President Bush's leadership, we have done all that...after all, once we knocked off the Taliban, we didn't have to stay in Afghanistan and help rebuild it...and neither did we have to stay in Iraq once Saddam was gone...heck, if we were like a leftist, we'd have just bombed the place to smithereens and then written books saying that what we did was great.

We are expending our blood and treasure bringing succor to the suffering, and all you on the left can do is condemn it...

jdhenshall,

Never mind that terrorists will kill "infidels" ala equal opportunity style, without regard to origin, sex, position, or age.

-- Actually we agree taking care of the terrorists, which are in AFGANISTAN, not iraq, which is why we would clean up Iraq as best we could and pull out to concentrate on finishing the job in afganistan, where the terrorists and Taliban are returning now, not to mention capture ot kill Bin Laden.

Never mind those stupid simple Iraqis. There were enough for Saddam to slaughter for at least another decade? Am I right?

-- We care for the Iraqis, which is why its important to get the troops out and stop killing them. Bombs, Missles and American troops have killed 10X the amount of iraqis that Saddam ever did.

Never mind our idiot President. How stupid of him for wanting to throw the first punch and keep the images of another 9/11 off your TV sets.

-- By going into Iraq? Since we ALL know that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 and since we ALL know that there were no terrorists in Iraq before we invaded, how does being there prevent another 9/11 again?

The president was an "idiot" when he gave up the war on terror and bin laden just 6 months after 9/11 and chose to invade Iraq instead. Then he used the "Terrorists" talking points to get all your sand heads to believe that the troops are over there killing Al Qaeda or terrorists. They are not, they are fighting insurgents, ordinary Iraqis that pick up arms to fight the american occupying force. Remove the occupation and you have no more insurgents. Insurgents present NO danger of coming to america to bring terrorism here.

Never mind that al-Quida's operatives, had they a soul, are free-thinking and could choose to stop fighting and killing their countrymen for sake of media coverage should they choose.

-- Since these are all in AFGANISTAN and Pakistan, thats the place that the troops should be taking care of them isn't it?

Never mind that this isn't Medal of Honor, or Halo, and you can't just reset after you die. Or that it isn't Hollywood and every war movie have a frosted ending. Real life, real world, this is it.

-- Thats right. That why are upset about Iraq, it was an unnecessary war and people died needlessly for a cause that had nothing to do with protecting america. That why we are upset that soldiers in AFGANISTAN are dying because they are hopelessly outnumbered because you went into Iraq instead of continuing the war on terror.

You guys can't have lived though any previous war. My grandfather faught in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. I see his eyes well up when he talks about the savagery of it, of war, and yet how he always somehow knew he was there for a reason.

-- Ask him about Vietnam, since it has the most in common with Iraq. Ask him that at the end of the day, if he felt that all the soldiers died for a cause that had to do with protecting america or if it was some other foreign cause that they died for. Also ask him if he felt vietnam was absolutely necessary.

Wake up, progressives. True evil exists, and no amount of diplomatic frolicing or pacifism will qwell it. Evil will never dies, and thus, there will always be the possibility of war.

-- We know this, we are not sleeping, we just see that it is clearly in Afganistan and Pakistan and a few other countries. Not in Iraq.

Mark,

Indeed - and under President Bush's leadership, we have done all that...after all, once we knocked off the Taliban, we didn't have to stay in Afghanistan and help rebuild it...

-- Knocked off the taliban Mark? When did you ever do that? You drove them out, killed a lot and now they are returning enmasse since you only have minimal troops there including coalition forces. I don't see a whole lot of progress there on the rebuilding front either, aside from paying Halliburton millions and getting shafted.

Your president cut and ran from afganistan, leaving the problem unresolved in favor of invading iraq which had nothing to do with protecting america or fighting terrorism. Your president had a personal score to settle and he used the brave men and women in the armed forces to settle it.

He even admitted this as far back as 1999, that his mind was made up to invade, 2 years before he even became president.

"One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief." ... "My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it." "If I have a chance to invade... if I had that much capital, I’m not going to waste it. I’m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I’m going to have a successful presidency."

— George W. Bush to his autobiographer in 1999 while Governor of Texas

and neither did we have to stay in Iraq once Saddam was gone...

-- No you didn't, that was the big screwup, you won the war, screwed up the aftermath. In fact, you did not even need to involve the military to remove Saddam, instead could have used the CIA and "contractors AKA mercenaries" to remove him from power. They have done it many times before in many other countries over the years.

heck, if we were like a leftist, we'd have just bombed the place to smithereens and then written books saying that what we did was great.

-- So instead you occupy and get the soldiers killed one at a time? The rebuilding effort is a joke. The only thing you are serious about building there is 14 permanent bases and the largest embassy on earth, 104 acres in size, large enough to hold 8000 - 12 000 people. Iraqis see these and realize you are fixing to stay there forever and they want their country back.

Hey Mark, can you please show me exactly where my comments about america are wrong, did we or did we not prop up the taliban then bring them down, did we not prop up sadaam, then bring him down, how about the Shah or the House of Saud...

ok, what else can you refute...we use depleted uranium, against international law, we used white phosforus in Fallujah, hell we basically eradicated the whole place, we are engaged in renditions to who knows where, we basically made a forced amendment to the iraqi constitution, enshrining the ideal of "free-markets" to Iraqi oil, except that means its free to raid for american companies, we continue to sabre rattle over iran, who is about as militarily impressive as Iraq was...where am i wrong...c'mon, tell me where im wrong?

We have people who flock here for the same reason im not leaving, because while we have lost our way, we are still an ideal, and ideal that we care, that you can be free to do what you want without fear of reprisal, which is what infuraites me so much when i see BushCo. scaling back right and freedoms wholesale, all the while telling me i need to be afraid. You know who im afraid of...the guys with the nukes...and that aint Osama.

Third eye, conservatives like to close their eyes to the uglyness that they cause and pretend its not even there.

America, even with all its' faults, is a great country. Bush's time as leader will expire, and with luck, you will elect an administration that will bring back some of the good-will that was lost during this debacle.

There must be someone who is willing to clean up the mess Bush has made. Someone who loves his country and wants it once more to be a respected world citizen.

Mark, by the way, if you're gonna censor me, atleast have the balls to do it right, you wanna argue about the numbers, then fine, but you would have been fired as an editor by now...anyone out there that doesn't believe more than 24,000 people a day die from hunger, then come talk to me, and ill show you how everything adds up...apparently mark doesn't think ya'll are big-folks enough to handle such disturbing statistics

Thanks, Canadian Observer--

These are really dark days for those of us who have their eyes open and have seen how far we have fallen in the eyes of the world.

Third Eye Open is right about how we've propped up Saddam, the Taliban and the Shah , when it worked for us. Why is that so hard to face-its the truth, and the fact that we can't face it is destroying us.
Anyone who's looked at Richard Perle's PNAC from 1998 understands the real reason we're in Iraq, Afghanistan and are sounding the war drums for Iran. PNAC recommends using increased military force to protect our interests abroad. That means protect our access to Middle East oil.

America, even with all its' faults, is a great country. Bush's time as leader will expire, and with luck, you will elect an administration that will bring back some of the good-will that was lost during this debacle.

There must be someone who is willing to clean up the mess Bush has made. Someone who loves his country and wants it once more to be a respected world citizen.

-- Well said. Fact is that America is more divided that it has ever been since the civil war. Thats all due to bush. None of that division during daddy bush, clinton or regan.

But it does serve as a convenient distraction, allowing them to rape, pillage and steal while your minds are elsewhere.

Axis,

Come on buddy, how much for the posts???

Yes, forgive me for my emotion. I happen to view the world in clear focus, instead of rose-tinted glasses. I see things for real, and don't look at war or events of terrorism in the third-person. You will forgive me if I let my mind drift and remember that I had family touring in New York during that September morning, or had a second-cousin on a certain ship in Yemen a few years ago. All this is a bit more personal to me than most because I lived a few day of my life fearing the worst.

If there be a person who think the goverment, under some model leader, can cure the problems of poverty, educational deficets, balance the budget, protect the enviorment, and stop all of the wars, please take sneeze out the coke for a minute and think about it. The goverment can't make everything better. If anything, they can support private charities like they did during the tsunami relief and Katrina crisis.

Every time I post here, it is in response to an anti-conservative or anti-Bush comment. Not once, not once have I ever heard through the cries of complaining and horror an alternate solution, a way to make things better. It always some cry about Iraq, the budget, lack of bigger goverment, or some silly nitpick in the grammar, or in my case, slight emotion in one's post. Way to better America.

You see, people like these are stuck in a ideological world, and the procreation of ideas is welcome. However, sane intelligent people compare those ideas to the reality of the world and it's inhabitants. Some just aren't good or don't fit. Shocker.

Note the very first line of my previous post. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Its not really a matter of the state of the union and world to you; its more like your so upset that a majority of Americans voted a part not once, but twice, into power that stands for things you don't. You hate it and you will point out every tiny flaw, block every law, protest every nomination, out of spite and nothing else. You forget everyone has a fair chance to promote thier campaign and platform in order to sway the voters. You will hopefully forgive us if they like our ideals better than yours. If we are really the satan incarnate you claim us to be, vote for someone else. You just have to get everyone to agree with you and vote us out.

This coming from a party who was more invovled with protecting the precious image of an adulterer in the White House than to take care of problems domestically and abroad. Most of the "crises" you are complain about were existant in the Clinton Administration. Poverty, human rights violations, terrorism. I doubt they are started simultaneously on January 20, 2001.

Some of you think America is backwards, despite being the wealthiest and most technologically advanced. You forget the fact than many of the institutions like the UN, G8, and NATO would be as powerful as the Mickey Mouse Club without us.

I don't like repeating myself: Wake up, progressives.

Ok, Jd, you wanna talk like adults, lets converse.

I'm sorry you are so personally vested in the terrorism attacks on 9/11 and in yemen, its regretable when ANYONE is exposed to the hate that fills this world, the hate of seeing people who don't act or speak, or think like you do, as some sort of evil...its really not a good indicator of all the other adcances we have made as a race in the last 10,000 years or so. But dont you dare, for pone minute think your story or the story of your family somehow superceedes the suffering of people beyond the scope of your eyes and ears, or the cameras of FOX news, there are people who everyday, because of the unfortunate luck of being born poor, who go hungry, who endure countless humiliations, all the while we complain when 2000 people die, 24,000 people die of hunger each day, and when we spend more than every other country combined in military expenditures, thats a slap in the face of a hungry child wondering why God doesn't listen to their prayers, why God lets the American people bomb their village, killing family, it leaves them wondering why America hates them.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, but i do know that in my gut it is wrong to kill, it is wrong to sujugate people in the Marianas so we can get cheaper goods, its wrong to put countries like Indonesia into debt they can never repay, it's wrong to bomb civilians in towers without remorse...its WRONG!

Yes, Jd, I will use my vote to get my values heard, I will use my voice to proclaim it to the heavens and beyond, I won't rest until everyone, has everything they need, until then I will call America out on its fallacy that just because we have the good fortune to be born into this heavenly place, that we can ignore those who can't...if you wanna call that ideological, then ive got about half the country behind me wondering why exactly we are killing people in a place that never attacked us, with weapons we sold them, while places like Saudia Arabia get away with murder, while we suck at the teat of cheap oil...

Lastly, don't use Clinton as some sort of uber-club for beating down all arguments...I thought Clinton was just as slimy as Bush, but the biggest difference is that while he was sucking up to his corporate interests, he didn't sign the death warrants of 2400 of our best and brightest, or issue orders that have killed and maimed over 200,000 innocent iraqis, no he got a blowjob

Let me say something to seperate myself from most blogging types: I do sincerely try to look at all points of view. I am a conservative first and foremost, not a Republican, and am not entirely satisfied with the job my goverment is doing.

Don't think for one moment that I put myself before others because I am entirely the oppposite. Hell, I feel guilty taking the last slice of pizza. I do know that there are injustices in the world, of poverty ,starvation, disease and suffering. You have no idea how much respect I have for charities and people who volunteer themselves, both time-wise and financially to try and help others. I do donate to programs like H4H, ARC, Feed the Children, and United Way.

I refuse to give my money to the goverment for "charitable" reason, knowing full well how the goverment handles the money in the cookie jar. I have little faith in out goverment spending, aside from national defense, to actually take care of anything. You are right that there are issues going unnoticed or ignored, but why charge the duty of addressing these problems to those who are more concerned with campaigning, wining and dining, affairs, or rerouting you taxdollars for there own petty projects?

I am for more privitization and smaller goverment for the simple fact that I know our goverment can't do it all. It can't. Itnever will be able to. It is why communism was such a bust. Uncle Sam has had nearly 230 years and it still hasn't made everything work like a well oiled machine. I'm not anti-goverment, I just think they should stick to what they were intended to do, legislate and maintain order.

These private charaties and organizations can never solve all the problems, no one can. Something will always be wrong. But I know they do a hell of a lot better job then getting government to do something. In a perfect world, perhaps, but look around: far from perfect.

One more thing: Don't single out America. If anything, America is the only one who gives a damn. See WWII, Gulf War, etc. You said youself it's a heavenly place. The US isn't the source of all the problems in existance. Sure, we usually have to mop up someone else's mess, but there are dozens of countries above us on the thorn-in-the-side-of-the-world category, namely one threatening to blow Isreal of the map.

I sympathize with your beliefs, but not on the execution of your solutions. But that's the foundation of politics. Anyway, that just a tiny shred of my beliefs, but mainly answering your seeming accusation of being self-centered and ignorant. I do appreciate the civilized rebuttal, this is what debate is meant to be; exchange and critique of ideas, not name calling or finger pointing. Thanks.

Jd,

I extend my thanks to you aswell, for the civility with which you responded.

I agree wholeheartedly, i may be a liberal and progressive in my social leanings, but I prefer my government to be as small as possible, it should uphold the common good, the welfare of the nation, and nothing more, when we are enshrining 20,000 new laws and amendments each year in our system it creates loopholes and sets the stage for corruption and waste, I think the states can do a much better job...with appropriate federal oversight to maintain civil rights.

I love my country, I feel privleged to be born into the greatest nation to ever grace the face of the planet IMHO, but as a citizen of this nation its my responsibility to make sure things are as equitable for those who are less fortunate than us, world-wide, how can it be in our best interest to be building new nuclear weapons while we spread tons, upon tons of depleted uranium throughout the middle east? How can we outspend EVRY other nation COMBINED in military expenditures, when 24,000 people a day die from hunger?
The point I was making is that America, is only concerned with America, unless we have to save some face, promise some cash, and never come through with it, which happens far more often than you might think, just go checkout what our debt to the UN is right now, not from dues, but from promised funds. Every missle, bullet and plane made for fighting wars, is a slap in the face to the poor of the world who are more concerned with how the next meal is going to find its way into their families stomachs.
Maybe this is all sactimonious BS, and perhaps im too pie in the sky, bleeding heart liberal, but i can't jive my privlege with the thought that the trade-off for that comfort comes at the expense of resources that the poor people of the world need far more desperately than myself. I would like to reccomend a book, its called "Confessions of and Economic Hitman" its a short read, and a very good page turner if youre into history.

peace