He will be indicted. Fitzgerald is a bulldog and is making absolute sure that he has Rove by the short and curlies before he officially indictes him as he knows how manipulative and slick Rove is.

Roves problem is that he was so used to lying about everything to anyone and never being held accountable that he just naturally lied to the grand jury, not once, not twice but three times. And then only came clean when he had to because multiple reporters came forward to tell the grand jury of what he had told them.

For me, its just one more corrupt fasicst off to prison. For Bush however, its a huge deal because Rove has been at the very center of all policy decisions since the beginning and his loss will mean a huge gap in the administration.

For the GOP its another huge ugly scandal to further bring down their numbers and convince the voters how corrupt they are.

Fitzgerald has officially labelled Rove as a "Subject" of the investigation. He's not a "target" yet. But looking at a historic breakdown of Fitzgerald's past cases, he has indicted every one of the "subjects" in all his other cases.

Hes not walking away from this one.

So says AXIS so it must be true.

Sigh

Hey look... Axis is a fascist... has the same weight as when you call Rove that.

It must suck to hate someone so much that you'll just say anything.

I go to a liberal blog and the only thing that surpasses their love and respect for people is their hatred of conservatives.

NOW... here will come Axis defending his statement as if libel is okay as long as HE does it.

Hey axis, click your heels together three times and wish really hard and it just might happen.

As soon as a terrorist lover like axis invokes the word "fascism" he's lost the arguement.

Ah, now you guys are going with the "nobody cares" argument.

I recall reading about a year ago on another right-minded blog that Karl Rove was completely absolved in this case.

"Even if Karl Rove were to be indicted, what would that actually do for you? Is it going to mow your lawn? Have a beer for you?

Geesh...get a life!"

Now that it's looking like an indictment may be coming soon, the gears a switched to "so what?" mode.

Hey Tom,where does it look like an indictment is coming soon? Please cite truthout.org.

Believe me, if Rove gets indicted and frog-marched out of the White House, the wingnuts won't be saying so what. He's their not-so-secret weapon for electoral success in'06. You see, Republicans can't appear with the president as his unpopularity might rub off on them, and they can't exactly run on their record either, as 2/3 of Americans want the country to go in a new direction. What's left? Rove's specialty swift-boating the opposition candidate. He's their only hope.

I don't think I have much an opinion on the whole Karl Rove thing (haven't read enough about it), so I'm not going to comment on the merits of either side of the debate. What I will say though is that your disingenous treatment of said debate in this post is childish and invidious. Furthermore, it is completely vacuous.

Seriously, you can come up with something better than, You're not cool if you're talking about this. At the very least you should be calling those pinko commies unpatriotic!

Actually Tom... Read what we wrote, we find calling someone a fascist simply because you dislike him, doesn't score you points.

It's interesting that instead of facts or REALITY, you'll cling to a false story by a less than credible blog simply for the hope of an indictment.

I'll care when an indictment happens. It's True though, the same question could have been asked by you when Bill Clinton was trying to encourage others to perjure themselves in order to save his own ass. It's just sex, what's the big deal. That's what you said then... so why now all the outrage... OH I KNOW!!! Rove is a Republican.

I'd call you a hypocrite, but that's not polite, and I don't want to be labeled a fascist.

Year 2050 - Rove is indicated for not having a Pooper scooper while walking his dog.

Axis Tom and the rest of the Left says "told you he was going to be indicted" 15 minutes later

there you all go again:

fascist
terrorist-lover

the relentlessly peddled right-wing attack labels for anyone who does not espouse right-wing dogma nor fealty to king george. so asinine and childish and indicitive of the reptilian-brain mindset (a mindset that focuses on survival and overrides the rational brain in times of danger).

bloviator

Nope, I'm just using the same rhetoric as those on the left use. Since everyone on the "right" is considered a "fascist" or "nazi" then everyone on the left should be considered a "terrorist lover" and "America hater."

I don't see you trying to tone down the far left wing kook fringe. That makes you not only disingenuous but a hypocrite as well.

Children....PLEASE....LET'S STOP THE NAME CALLING!

My question is this: If Rove is indicted and, let's assume Mr. Fitzgerald has his ducks lined up, what is the impact of this going to be on the Bush administration?

Also, assuming that Rove does not become a state's witness to escape punishment, what punishment would be appropriate for the crime(s) committed (assuming again the indictments for perjury and obstruction of justice come to pass)?

Comments?

Children....PLEASE....LET'S STOP THE NAME CALLING!

My question is this: If Rove is indicted and, let's assume Mr. Fitzgerald has his ducks lined up, what is the impact of this going to be on the Bush administration?

Also, assuming that Rove does not become a state's witness to escape punishment, what punishment would be appropriate for the crime(s) committed (assuming again the indictments for perjury and obstruction of justice come to pass)?

Comments?

"Year 2050 - Rove is indicated for not having a Pooper scooper while walking his dog."

More like:

May 2006—Rove is indicted for lying to a grand jury about his role in dissimating classified information that led to the outing of a CIA agent.

ok cj - fair enough. but the propensity to attack the left and label them unpatriotic, unamerican, or 'lovers of terrorists' is exceedingly more prevalent, particularly when levelled against the individual (and not the state as axis implied).

wawilliyo, I call Rove a facsist because he is a central figure in the entire bush neo-con agenda of controlling the middle east. Not to mention controlling and spying on all your serfs over here.

Every lie, deception and mis-truth that has come out of George Bush's lips has been whispered into his ear by Karl Rove via that little ear piece he wears everywhere he goes.

bloviator

That's just a flat out lie. Have you ever read democraticunderground? Or any sites like it? It is FAR more prvelent to see the word "nazi" and fascist" thrown about against individuals there than someone calling anyone an "America hater" on sites like this. In fact I'm about the only one who does it here.

In fact these are from threads on the front page. Here, here, this one is just hilarious. Here's how democrats feel about Christians. I guess you agree that Rumsfelf is a "demon."

That's just a quick look. I could imagine how bad it would be if they let any opposing views to be posted.

Meanwhile the culture of corruption continues as Howard Dean backs the "white guy" in his attempt to make the vanilla city and William Jefferson caught taking $100,000 in bribes.

Oh those Democrats. Hilarious stuff.

Axis

Please list the lies of the Bush administration and the proof behind them. Thank you.

Hey Axis,

Rep. William Jefferson from Louisiana. Since you are so concerned with fraud and corruption I was wondering what your thoughts were about this scumbag.

By the way, the manner with which you toss around the term fascist indicates one of two things. 1) You are a moron that has no clue as to the definition of the word and/or 2) you are a Canadian. I would bet on both being true.

My grandfather died fighting fascists. For you to imply that Republicans hold the same views is repugnant beyond words. Remind me again, which party fought against freeing the slaves???

GOP 4 ME,

If he is corrupt, send him to prison. Unlike many of you, I am not partisan when it comes to corruption. Democrat or Republican, corruption is the cancer of democracy and anyone involved in it should be sent a strong message.

"My grandfather died fighting fascists. For you to imply that Republicans hold the same views is repugnant beyond words. Remind me again, which party fought against freeing the slaves???"

That is admirable and you should be proud. However I am not saying that Republicans as fascists, I am saying that SOME republicans are fascists. These more often than not are Neo-Conservatives, which are for big government and centralization of power, which traditional republicans and moderate republicans are NOT for.

The problem is that the modern republican party has factions in it that are very different from each other. You need to purge the neo-cons from the party so that the traditional republican value s are again restored. Presently, they are being preverted and oppresed by the neo-cons now in power, this is why so many republicans are now against bush, as his values are not traditional republican values, yet he hides under the republican umbrella.

Kick the fascists out the the republican party and force them to start their own independant party or else before long the traditional republican values will be extinct as their will no none left in the party.

By the way, the manner with which you toss around the term fascist indicates one of two things. 1) You are a moron that has no clue as to the definition of the word and/or 2) you are a Canadian. I would bet on both being true.

-- Fascism as referenced below can be defined as the centralization of power. It takes many years to convert into such as state without causing public uprising. Bush is pushing for centralization of power through the assertation that a president can break ANY law, not in just a time of war, but at any time. Yoo said this, so did Cheney.

Bush is also pushing for centraliztion by making congress ilrelavent by using signing statements in laws he signs in stating he is not bound to obey this law. So far, over 750 laws signed in by bush, he has stated that they do not apply to him.

He is also trying to make the courts irrelavant by keeping everything top secret and out of the courts and also by claiming that he can make the final interpretation on the constitutionality of a law. This power is CLEARLY reserved for the judiciary.

He is also trying to infringe on the budget creation and appropriations that is also reserved for congress by proclaiming that he can take money out of any appropriations intended for something else and use it as he sees fit. So, he can take a few billion out of appropriations for Iraq and use it to build secret prisons and he does not need to inform congress about it.

He is infringing on constitutional oversight reserved for congress and this congress is ok with that. He does so by blocking oversight and dening access to investigators by refusing to give them clearances.

Bush is clearly, clearly infringing on the seperation of power and attempting to usurp the power reserved for congress and the courts.

Next on the list will be Posse comitatus, he will be infringing on this as well, eventually hoping it will warm you up to the idea of allowing troops in the homeland whenever he wants. This would allow him down the road to use them against americans that are say uprising against his policies or political dissidents. It will also clear the way for martial law to be declared in nearly any event.

That warning signs are all there. Unfortunately, for many, they will not and cannot believe that their president could so these things so they will keep their eyes closed until its too late. During the holocaust, many, many Germans saw for their own what was happening but could not believe it or process it so they closed their eyes to it and denied it.

fas·cism Pronunciation Key (fshzm)
n.

1. often Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Bwahahahaha!!!! That's the democrat party to a "T"

Bwahahahaha!!!! That's the democrat party to a "T" "

-- Remember, stupid people have stupid children. Please tell me you are not breeding.

Axis

You keep saying the lies, the lies, the lies.

Can you please tell us what those lies are and the indisputable proof that proves they were lies.

Thank you

"Can you please tell us what those lies are and the indisputable proof that proves they were lies"

-- That will come early next year when the Democrats are able to launch investigations with full subpeona power and proper congressional oversight.

The real question here is, when it does come out that they were lies with solid proof, will you admit it and accept it or will you just close your eyes and tell yourself that "it must be a liberal conspiracy, it has it be, it can't really be true."??

May 2006—Rove is indicted for lying to a grand jury about his role in dissimating (sic)classified information that led to the outing of a CIA agent.

Shipley, I know this is your fondest wet dream. IIRC, you predicted Rove would be indicted by December 1, 2005. A little premature, weren't you?

Fitzgerald has already said no one will be indicted for outing Valerie Plame. Someone once said a good prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. It'll be a little harder to convince a real jury to convict someone for lying about a nonexistent crime. I still think you're pissing into the wind. We'll see......

"-- That will come early next year when the Democrats are able to launch investigations with full subpeona power and proper congressional oversight."

Translation: "I can't back up what I say with facts"

Tom,

I've actually met Karl Rove...he doesn't have horns on his head. I can't say that he's a friend, as it was only the one meeting, but it was a half hour roundtable with several of us bloggers discussing politics with Rove...rather fun.

He's a nice guy - seriously: like you'd want to have a beer with him while watching football kind of guy.

Its not that I don't care if Rove gets indicted - I'd be offended if he were, perhaps even moreso than I was offended over the insta-miscarriages of justice involved in the DeLay and Libby indictments...but I also won't lose any sleep over it.

if Rove is indicted I'll pray that he has the courage to bear up under it and that justice is done...I'll write about it here on the blog and let everyone know what I think about it all...but I won't live and breath Rove indictment...you guys on the left are getting an unhealthy fixation on certain people and events....really, get a life: lighten up.

Fitzgerald has already said no one will be indicted for outing Valerie Plame. Someone once said a good prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. It'll be a little harder to convince a real jury to convict someone for lying about a nonexistent crime. I still think you're pissing into the wind. We'll see......"

-- That's why hes getting them on lying to a grand jury and obstruction of justice charges, much easier to prove and they go to prison for stint.
The crime doesn't be proven to be real, all they need to prove is he lied and that he obstructed the investigation purposely.

Even if convicted, he'll be out in 2, but it will send a strong message, which is what washington needs to clean up all the corruption which is worse now than it has ever been in american history.

Mark, Delay was as corrupt as one can be. You hail him to be an innocent victim too? He was an exerminator and got into politics in order to lobby to allow exterminators to use cheaper and deadly sprays that were proven cancer causing agents. Hes no virgin mary.

I suppose you believe that Abramoff was railroaded too by a liberal conspiracy?

This whole non-story was a disinformation plot hatched by Jack Bauer from "24".

Axis---Corruption only counts with this crew when a Democrat is caught. All the right wing talk show hosts were having a field day dishing about Congressman Jefferson, but I haven't heard a single one condemn any action of Delay, Ney, Abramoff, Libby, Rove, Burns or Cunningham.

I'm a moderate Democrat, but not enough of a partisan to defend taking bribes by a member of my party. If Jefferson is guilty, he should be held accountable.

But the same partisan Republicans who condemned Bill Clinton for perjury, somehow think its no big deal when its Libby or Rove. Just shows their partisanship trumps their integrity.

Axis

So what you're saying is you have no proof but you've taken it upon yourself to try and convict this man without that proof.

How very...uhm...atheist of you.

Nope, am expressing my opinion based on the clear evidence of wrongdoing. You are only expressing your opinion of his innocence not out of some sort of christian sense of morality, but because hes a Republican.

If it was a democrat, you'd be saying hes guilty as hell.

And you know it.

Axis,

You are becoming self-parody...give it a rest.

Dang it Mark, you might have embarrassed him now. I was enjoying analyzing the deviant mind of someone who enjoys his own 'clear evidence' versus everyone else's mere opinion. Hopefully the evil Rove will be monitoring this guy, and he'll just disappear from your site!! Oh, but I don't wish that, since I only have one wish left.

"you guys on the left are getting an unhealthy fixation on certain people and events....really, get a life: lighten up."

First of all, it's just a tad bit ironic that you say other people are getting an unhealthy fix on a political story and suggest others to "get a life."

Second, Rove may be a great guy to watch a football game with. But I've always lived by the rule that you shouldn't judge people on how they treat you, but how they treat others. Of course Rove is going to be a great guy to a bunch of GOP bloggers, but how does he treat the wife of a political opponent during a South Carolina primary?

And, does he lie to a grand jury? That's the question before us.

RS,

Back when Libby was indicted, many on here gloated about Rove being in the clear. I asserted that Rove was not in the clear and predicted he would be out of the white house by the end of the year. Since the investigation has drug on, I changed my prediction to "Rove would be out of the White House when the investigation ends."

I still stand by that prediction.

Its tough when you have no basis for a logical arguement for the only thing left for you to do is to try and generally dismiss or belittle others...

"You are becoming self-parody...give it a rest."

"Clear Evidence"

I keep asking for it but you keep ducking behind "it will come next year". If it's so CLEAR, let's hear it.

Let's see it.

Tell us the lies that are absolute slam dunks, no debate, absolute proof. Should be easy for you Axis.

Put up or shut up, that's all we're asking of you and your ilk.

That clear evidence is coming and you will surely get more than enough to short out your narrow minded brain warrior.

Theres enough out there now to convince the people, and thats just the loose ends that slipped through the cracks.

People have waited 5 years for proper investigations and oversight and its coming sooner than you think.

Count on seeing the decider resigning in disgrace as a failed and corrupt president after all his dirty laundry spills out onto the street.

Even if he doesn't end up in prison where he belongs, knowing that he will know that he failed as a president too is some consolation. He has not been successful at anything substantial in his life, couldn't even find oil in Texas and had to go bankrupt.

His ambition in life is waiting for the old man to pass on so he can get his money. Count on him cutting George out though if he disgraces the family name.

I'll take that as the 4th time you are incapable of providing any evidence whatsoever, be it clear or merky or any other kind.

I see the liberal tolerance you espose is in high gear today.

If you'd watch something other than faux news, maybe you'd see some of it too.

Mainstream america has seen it, thats why 75% of america wants bush GONE.

Im not going to bother educating you, its a waste of time because it doesn't matter what evidence there is, you will just close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist.

There are still those that beleive that Nixon was a great and honest president and doesn't believe all the evidence, dismissing it as a liberal conspiracy.

There are those of you there that refuse to believe that the nazi halocaust took place and believe it was some sort of liberal conspiracy.

This is America warrior, here you have the freedom to be dumb and ignorant and you are making the absolute most of your rights. Congrats.

75% of America wants Bush gone? Really, what poll are you reading. I've seen where he has 33% approval ratings but I've yet to see a poll that says they want him gone. Also, who do they want to replace him....is that in the poll too?

I don't watch Fox news particularly, but it's obvious you don't care for their approach. Is that because they aren't liberal like the other sources?

Nixon honest? Not sure who still says that? I do know some that believe he was a good President for his ending the Vietnam War that a Democrat started despite Vietnam not attacking us (oh the Irony), for creating the Environmental Protection Agency, moving us off the gold standard, opening Chinese relations, etc.

Personally I'd rank him in the middle of the pack myself, but the actions of his cronies really did him. My guess is that you aren't old enough to even be around when Nixon was, but that's just a guess.

Who believes the Nazi holocaust didn't happen other than whack job Islamo-terrorists...the same ones I find you defending more each day? Oh the irony.

Finally Axis, you're right this is America and I'm entitled to my opinion just as you are of yours. God Bless

Tom is still claiming that Rove "outed" Plame. Don't you get current news on Planet Lib, Tommy Boy? Or is it censored like everything else you get fed, to make sure you continue to regurgitate the party line? Come ON, Tommy----it is so so yesterday to not know that Plame was brought home precisely BECAUSE she was "outed" by Rick Ames, and that that she proceeded to make her NEW job with the CIA public knowledge.

The sad/funny thing is, these lefties seem to confuse a Grand Jury with a Jury. They seem to think that a grand jury is a trier of fact, that is reviews all the evidence and reaches a conclusion regarding guilt. But hey, what's a little ignorance to a lefty?

Hard telling what they think an indictment is.

Fitzgerald is such a hero to the left---a real "bulldog". So dedicated to finding out the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth that he never even looked into whether or not Plame was covert in the first place. True---his own words.

But Libby says Wilson was never more than a blip on their radar screen, just a minor annoyance, and that he paid very little attention to the details of when he learned what because it was no big deal to him---Wilson lied, Wilson got caught, they pointed out that Cheney had not dispatched him on any errand, case closed. The only thing Fitz could accuse him of---beause you DO know, don't you, lefties, that an indicment is only an ACCUSATION?---is of being inaccurate in his timeline.

In other words, the absolute ONLY thing that has given this non-story any legs at all is the constant use of crystal balls---the psychic determination that the motive behind discussing Plame at all was VENGEANCED, REVENGE, SPITE....and the subsequent determination that everyone else thought Joe Wilson was as important as Joe Wilson thought Joe Wilson was.

If the Left could not inflate a nobody like Wilson into a major player, and could not then assign big bad motives which in fact never existed, none of this would have gotten past a blip on one night of local news. It was the infation by the Left that made it a story at all. And much of that is because they simply cannot STAND to be dismissed as insignificant. Something about the truth hurting...... So they have to convince us all that Wilson is, and was, as important as they want/need him to be.

The truth that Wilson was really more of an annoying little gnat who took up a miniscule amount of time, energy, and attention in the grand scheme of things is just too distasteful to bear, and it also undermines the entire story. Libby had an important job doing important things. Wilson was not important. Libby squeezed in a few minutes to find out that Wilson had been pimped by his wife, who had far more stroke than he had, and he passed that on and went back to grown-up stuff. And then, shock anger outrage, months and months later could not remember exactly when he spent those few minutes on something he didn't think was important.

Clearly a much more blatant offense than 'not remembering' that you were actually ALONE with a girl who was servicing you. As if you wouldn't remember if you had Betty Curry as a witness....

Almiranta, for rove, his involvement with plame is now moot. Hes in trouble for lying and obstructing justice.

Just like Libby.

Axis...where's that poll that shows 75% of Americans want Bush out as President.

thanks