Hello, AAR my litle fascist buddy, I see you are posting her after being slice and diced in the other topic and exposed as the fascist you are.
I see many "anti-Canuck" comments like you mention way above. Most are amusing because a lot are embarassingly ignorant and show that they do not know the first thing about what they are talking about. Thats the difference between here and there. Here, most elementry school children can tell you the name of all the provinces and most of the states as well as the names of the prime minister. In a recent random test of 60% of American HIGH SCHOOL students were unable to name the current president of the united states and most did not even know where canada was and had difficulty finding it on the globe. The average Canadian off the street knows current events happening in canada as well as the united states. Canadian Newspapers carry most major US stories as well.
Ask an american off the street who the Canadian prime minister is and if they even know where canada is, (Good chance they will have trouble) theres an 80/20% chance they won't have a clue. Try it yourself, go outside and ask a joe on the sidewalk and see for yourself. Point is we are a well educated lot, with an eye on whats going on and in many cases, Canadians have shown that they have a better eye for whats going on in america then some americans do. The point is also that Americans are increasingly becoming isolationists, with kids being taught in school that only things that happen in America are important. American foreign policy increasing alienates all other nations in the world. Bush has succeeded in alienating the USA from the rest of the world better than any other president in history. during my last trip to Mexico, I saw that American tourists were actually posing as Canadians with canada flag shirts, because the locals will treat you COMPLETELY different if they think you are american because most treat them so badly down there.
Americans are seen as arrogant bullies and thats by your allies. Bush has done that. Time to smarten up and realize that the united states is a minority in the world and needs strong allies to get things done.
As for your post just above,
My view on Muslims? Simple. 90% are honest, peaceful people no different than you or eye. You like to focus on the 10% that are extremists fundamentalists while at the same time ignoring the 10% or more of Christians that are also militant, often starting hate groups or organizations. You conventiently ignore your bad eggs while focusing on the bad eggs of another religion or culture.
"You say that Hillary is speaking of abortion and birth control in the traditional sense. Her agenda is to preserve the status quo. Since it is the current rule of law, Roe vs. Wade, its not an agenda, instead vigilance against those that would seek to change things.
"And just how did that get to be the current rule of law? Because some activist judges said so, that's how."
-- Actually no. Most of the Supreme court judges were moderates, not activists. Have a historical look at some of the judges other desisions and you will see them mostly fair and balanced, no doubt siding with many others that don't involve something that violates your narrow views.
Roe vs wade was a 7 to 2 decision. Your problem is that as you are intolerant of anyone elses opinions and views, you are only left to conclude that they must be "liberal activists", because the politial scale goes from you directly to extremest liberal. Thats how ignorant and out of touch you are with reality. Things are eithe black or white in your world, AAR. No shades of grey.
"The fact is, people don't have to be Christians to oppose your agenda and ideology. What reason are you going to give to slander them, question their charter, and attack their values? Just the fact that they don't agree with you? Typical liberal attitude!"
-- I am not attacking your values, other than pointing out the ones that are completely hypocratic frauds. I call a spade a spade. Either you cherish all life or you don't cherish it at all. Its totally fraudlent to say you oppose abortions because you cherich life, but you approve of 17 year old soldiers dying in an illegal war because they lives are expendable. Those are fraudlent values. It's "thou shall not kill" PERIOD . You see "thou shall not kill (some people)"
Sorry if the truth of the fraudlency of your "values" offends you. Likewise you can't be "tough on crime" and then buy that cheap, stolen stuff from the back of the truck because its dirt cheap. Those are fraudlent values. You use them to prop yourselves up and make yourselves feel better, but they can just as quickly be set aside when they interfere with your own personal best interests.
As for those "true values" that you hold dear, I do not attack those either. I may disagree with them, which is my right as this is a free country, not a fascist state that you would prefer to have.
The difference between us is that I can disagree, share my views yet be tolerant your yours. You on the other hand, are intolerant of mine and would love to be able to FORCE your views onto me.
If tolerance and understanding makes me bad in your books, then I am proud to be one!
"Why don't we just let the people decide and let their members of Congress and legislatures vote on it? Why don't we just let a majority of the people decide if they want Roe vs. Wade reversed?"
-- Simple. Because Roe v Wade is a case where a Texas anti-abortion rule was seen to be unconstitutional and challenged in court where it was ultimately decided in Supreme court. If you allow congress to over-ride Supreme court decisions, then you throw out 200 years worth of constitutional protections to prevent the people from overbearing legislation. You throw out the constitution and you have a fascist state, which is what you want AAR. You spit on your own constitution and freedoms for the sake of your own short sighted values. Thats pretty sick and some of your ancestors would likely vomit at your anti-american sentiment. You aren't a proud american, you are a proud conservative. Pretty sad in my books.
"Why don't we just let a majority of the people decide if they want Roe vs. Wade reversed? Why fight to keep judges from the bench who may interpret the Constitution and laws they way they were written and intended? Why fight to keep judges from the bench who may interpret the Constitution and laws they way they were written and intended?"
-- Now thats beyond ignorant and venturing into the moronic territory. Judges interpret the constitution and laws each and every single day. Thats what they do. You want to live in a police state instead? Move to IRAN! You would love it there, and you could even start up your own fire and brimstone cult.
If the majority of the people wanted it dummy, they would be pressing for a constitutional ammendment. All I see is you wingnuts pushing for that, which are the minority.
The rest of the country, while many not necessarily agreeing, accept the supreme court decisions. Theres lots of desisions that I personally don't agree with, but I accept them, because thats how the constitution works in a democracy.
"You want YOUR ideology forced on us by activist courts when Congress and our legislatures don't see it YOUR way. You can't even "risk" letting the people or individual states decide what they want."
-- Nope. I just want you to accept the rule of law and the constitutional protections your founding fathers put into place to protect you. You would be outraged if a liberal congress had the final say on all matter of law. But its ok if a conservative congress has it instead. You spit on your country and constitution and wish for a police state instead. That makes you a fascist.
"Do you agree that a parent has and should have no say, or the final say, in anything related to sex, abortion, or sex education where it concerns their children? Do you agree that a parent should have no say if their children want birth control pills? Do you agree that the parents should have no say in the matter, or even be told, if their 12 or 14 year old daughter is told by "planned parenthood" to "get an abortion"?"
-- I never said that. I think in the case of the very young that are unable to make there own decisions, definately yes. However, your children are a product of your conception. You do not OWN them as was the view some time ago. As they grow older, they are entitled to make some of their own decisions, especially when it concerns their life, their body and their liberities.
Do I think parents should be advised? Absolutely which the exception in cases where it would endanger the well being of the child be doing so. Talk to your child and give them your thoughts and trust that you raised them well enough that they are going to make the right desision.
Do I think you should have the right to refuse your 14 year old child birth control pills, ignoring their personal wishes? No. If you as a parent, are unable to appreciate and accept that your 14 year old child is capable of some free and independant thought then that doesn't say much about how your raised your child does it? Likewise if your 14 year old chooses to become a catholic, rather than a baptist like you, thats their choice. You cannot drag them into your church, and handcuff them to the pew and force your views into your children. Thats just wrong.
"And what basis do you use to strip the rights from parents to raise their own children, to impose your views of abortion and sex on everyone else, to mandate and control any and everything related to abortions -- including taking away the rights of parents"
-- I don't. I am for allowing people to choose whats best for them and their lives. Allowing CHOICE is not forcing anything or imposing anything. It simply leaves the door open for people to make their own decisions. You on the other hand want to FORCE you views on everyone else and IMPOSE your views on everyone else. Thats the difference. CHOICE vs FORCED DECISION. No one forces you to have an abortion, that would be just as wrong as forcing someone not to have one. Your problem is that you just can't get you mind around the fact that allowing choice is not a bad thing. That is unless the shoe is on the other foot. If someone FORCED you into an abortion, you would be outraged. Yet forcing them into carrying a child to term you have no problems with. You are so shortsighted you are simply unable to see just how big of a hypocrite you are.
Do you live in an urban or suburban area? If so, would you allow a garbage dump to open next to your house? Would you have any problem if porno shops want to open on all sides of you? Do you have any ordinances governing other people's houses, yards, or actions? How about how they must mow their lawns? Any ordinances against noise, garbage, or trash on their property?
-- No these would not be my choice and would fight them legally if affecting my quality of life and trust that the court will arrive at the correct decision. That is my right however. You are for taking the power of the courts away and giving it to congress instead. So if I was a congressman, and I wanted to open a pornoshop right next door to YOUR home, by your fascist wishes, thats the end of it. Congress has the final say and thats it. So you would be ok with this? How about your congressman likes what you have done with your property and so he decides to expropriate it from you for his own personal use. You are ok with this? You want ot give conggress absolute power over law remember? Somehow, when the shoe is on the other foot, it just doesn't seem to fit the same does it?
"It's alright for you to impose restrictions, limitations, or your ideology on others, but it isn't alright for those on whom you want to impose your agenda to fight back! Typical liberal attitude!!!!!!!"
-- This is where you show your incredible level of ignorance yet again. Roe v Wade is not a restriction, it is not a limitation, it is an open door to alllow free independant choice. You are the one that seeks to implement restriction, you are the one that seeks to implement limitations on others. Yet you try to blame us for everything you want to do! You have the agenda, not us. You're either incredible dumb, ignorant or a combination of the 2. Which is it?
"You want a Constitutional Amendment on your ideology? Let's do it the right way. Let's have Congress approve your Amendment and put it to the people for a vote! Oh, can't risk anything like that, can we?"
-- NO, you want the constitutional ammendment. We are fine with the existing rule of law that has existed and protected the constitution for over 200 years. You would seek to simply throw that away at the expense of 275 million other americans to achieve your personal short sighted goals. If Roe v wade is overturned by another Supreme court decision, then we will have to live with it, won't we. You should feel the same. If not, why not move to china or iran that already feel the way you do rather than trying to reinvent the wheel and change the country, change the laws and system of government for your own selfish desires? You are definately a poor american, you are definately a poor patriot and you spit on your own constitution and rights and freedoms so why do you stay if you hate your country so much? Stop being a self-hating american and move on to an oppressive society where you will better feel at home. Other americans love their country, are passionate patriots, would die for protecting the constitution and their rights and freedoms that you would easily trade away for a six pack of beer.
This has been going on for a time, with a faction of the radical right. They are against ex-ed classes, personal devices etc as they view sex as "dirty"
Some have views that oppose contraception, generally the far right anti-abortionists and generally birth control pills and devices
see: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/magazine/07contraception.html?ex=1148356800&en=4db37ab266cf46eb&ei=5070
Some also oppose more passive contraceptives such as condoms. When pressed about STD's they commonly refer to "God's will" IE: If it's god will that you be stricken with a disease, its wrong to use artificial devices to oppose his will.
Why can't these radical right wingnuts just be happy with their own lives and stop trying to force their views on everyone else? They certainly wouldn't tolerate the shoe on the other foot of others forcing their wills on these wingnuts. But is ok for them to do it.
Personally, my favorite are the wingnuts that want to free up the ability for pharmacists, doctors, therapists etc to be able to refuse treatment or medication based on their personal religious
Imagine going to your local pharmacy to get your prescription for anti-depressants refilled and being told by your scientologist pharmacist that he won't refill your prescription because he doesn't believe in them and proceeds to lecture you on his beliefs.
Already this is beginning to happen by some pharmacists refusing to dispense birth control pills and such.
These religious rights are something else. I have nothing against religion personally, however taken in moderation and recognizing and tolerating the diversity of our different views, beliefs and cultures.
Axis,
I'll explain this to you because it really does seem as if you don't know:
The concept of Christians thinking of sex as "dirty" or shameful is a myth - an anti-Christian polemic spun by secularists who invented an easily crushed false Christian view of sex because they were - and are - completely incapable of controverting the real Christan view of sex.
The most important to remember about Christianity is this word: SERVICE.
I don't know how familiar you are with the Bible, but there is that one passage in which Jesus washes the feet of his disciples - this was an un-heard of lowering of ones self; only a slave or other lowly person would be assigned to do such a menial chore - Jesus did it on purpose in order to demonstrate the way Christians are supposed to behave.
There are a lot of things wrong with the whole idea of contraception - for purposes of this discussion, however, we'll concentrate on the fact that it cuts a person off from the gift of life. When a person deliberately goes out to gratify himself sexually without any real chance of children, then a person has changed the sex act from a mutual act of love and devotion and turned it into a cruel act of self gratification. A sex act with a person while using contraception turns that person into a mere tool of one's personal pleasure - it makes the sex act not only worthless, but an act of depravity.
Now, as for the alleged war on contraception - more than likely, what Hillary is on about is the fact that a conservative, Republican President is sending as much money towards the contraceptio industry as Hillary would like. Its not like anyone is advocating a ban on it.
I'd like to NOT advocate a ban on contraception, so that we continue to avoid little 'axis's in our midst. So much for culling out the weakest in the herd.
Let liberals continue their self gratification and aborting activities.....in time they will elimnate themselves...not to mention the gay side of things. They need heteros to survive and provide them with babies to raise!! Next thing you know they'll invent man pregnancy and claim male post partem for their lunacy!! hmmm...personally I think the Hill has male post partem and blames poor Bill for those big legs.
Mark, are you insinuating that all of the MILLIONS of couples out there who use birth control, many of them happily married or very much in love, are just turning thier sexuality into some cheap dirty whorish act, because they use birth control? If so, you are absolutely off your rocker.
Birth control DOES NOT equal lack of love for one's partner. It also DOES NOT negate the absolutely powerful committment of love.
Bringing children into the world is not always the best idea for many couples. Both people MUST be psychologically, emotionally, and financially ready to deal with the responsibility of a child.
To bring a child into the world, you must GIVE UP EVERYTHING for that child, you must do ANYTHING for that child's welfare. Many couples ARE NOT ready for children yet. Many MARRIED couples may not be ready for children.
Or would you rather they all got abortions, Mark?
Conservatives hate abortion, yet they also try to take away the thing that helps PREVENT abortions!
That is absolutely asinine.
And you say that there is not a distorted view of sex in some Christian thought?
How can you not see the BLATANTLY obvious hypocrisy of your statements.
Outlaw abortion, and take away birth control to make sure that everyone has unwanted children and are not ready for the responsibility of a child.
Mark, you must REALLY want to see a world full of neglected and abused children, don't you?
Think, man, THINK!!!
Robert,
I don't think I was insinuating it at all - I think I was pretty clear about what I was saying.
What I'd like to see some day is a comparitive study between couples who stay married and those who get divorced - what I'd like to know is the respective percentages of those who use birth control.
Robert, you're never "ready" for children...in fact, you're never "ready" for anything that happens in life...life happens and you deal with it; to shut yourself off to life because you aren't "ready" is to take a cowards view of life...and this is stated by a man who has spent most of his life as a coward on that score. I'm a recovering idiot on the subjects of love and sex.
To answer your absurd questions - I want neither; no abortion and no birth control...have sex in marriage or not at all, and take what comes because it is a blessing to be "burdened" by children...and we also need to get people who say "wait" to shut their bloody traps and mind their own business...
Okay, Mark, if we had it your way then all of those people who were not ready for children, who could not deal with or understand children when they did have them, would continue to beat, abuse, neglect, and otherwise destroy the lives of MORE children.
I know - I lived it!! If my father had solved his alcohol problem BEFORE having kids, my family might have been much better, and my parents might have stayed together.
Those people who might have been more ready for children were they older and wiser about life - you know, those who were not emotionally ready for a child, and could not give up the party scene for their children like they should have, might have been more ready had they waited and learned from experience how to fix themselves before they had kids - in your world all those people will be ruining children they could have treated kindly if they only had more time to learn.
But, your outlaw of birth control fixes all of that, huh? It gives all of those abused kids with black eyes and bloody souls a better life, huh?
Get a grip, man!
PEOPLE NEED TO FIX THEMSELVES BEFORE THEY HAVE KIDS!!!!
At least in the important ways that count.
Even married couples, Mark, have problems that can really hurt children if they are not able to solve them before the added stress (even loving stress) of having a child.
YOU CARE MORE FOR A CHILD WHEN YOU THINK FIRST BEFORE BRINGING ONE INTO THE WORLD!!!
How can you not see this?
Tht does not mean wait forever - but it does mean to be as prepared as you can be before you make that choice.
As to sex in marriage, as I said, many married couples ARE NOT ready for children. For that matter, many people are NEVER meant to be parents.
(at least until they solve their crack problem, ego problem, control problem, etc...)
Should they never have sex then, even in marriage?
Some wedding night, huh?
As to birth control cheapening sex, tell that to couples who use birth control who bawl their eyes out while making love. Those who feel so absolutely wonderful because they have found someone so wonderful in their lives. Tell that to those people who have really found love, but know that REALITY shows they need more time before bringing children into the world.
And you say I make absurd statements. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY! And stop being so arrogant and smug when you reply to people on this site.
Deleted - Personally insulting to author
Robert,
No one is ever ready to be a parent...sorry 'bout that, but there isn't a Parent Fairy who comes down and waves magic wand to create Ward and June Cleaver. Cry me a river about the alchoholic father - mine as the alchoholic mother...guess what? After a while, the moral responsibility lies with you...and if your parents aren't screwed up one way, they'll just be screwed up another...your father and my mother boozed it up; the father of a friend of mine let him run wild; another father was overly strict...its called humanity, Robert...it isn't perfect.
What it comes down to is this: do you love life, or do you hate it? If you love it, then LOVE it - all of it...and that includes the kid you aren't ready for at the moment of conception.
Don't get me wrong - there is a whole host of sociological problems these days which complicate matters of family and children...but I'm not going to subscribe to a hopeless point of view which says that children are a burden that only some can handle.
I believe the majority of those that oppose contraception are of the Roman Catholic faith. They make up the majority of Christians in the world, and probably the US.
As an aside, isn't talking about contraception and/or abortion in the same sentence as family planning an oxymoron??? I think family planning and the morals therein waved bye-bye to liberals back in the 70s.
As far as it goes, the whole issue will always be a tennis match so to speak. Ultra-liberals will continue preaching that sex is ok as long as you use protection, even if you're only 12 years old, and ultra-conservatives will continue preaching that you shouldn't have sex unless you want children. Either way, the correct solution will always come back to better parenting, not government intervention, and I don't care what anyone says about that.
Mark, you are confusing my comments of radical fundamentist Christians with moderate ones.
Moderates do not think that way, however many radical fundamentalist ones do.
I am aware of fundamentalist Christian sects that preach that woman from birth to death are forbidden to cut their hair, must wear long dresses, must attend church EVERY
Sunday, Must not have sex until married, can only marry one with identical beliefs, must do things a certain way and live a certain way or they are taught that they will burn in eternal hell if they stray. Thats radical fundamentalist.
I am a Christian myself, however a moderate one that tolerates people of other religions and beliefs and views without judging them.
Mark said:
"The concept of Christians thinking of sex as "dirty" or shameful is a myth"
I would consider your views on contraception to be fundamentalist and definately radical as well. No wonder you support this President no matter what.
You are, with your very comments trying to indicate that sex without an explicit desire to create offspring is not only dirty, but also immoral?
Thats twisted and radical my friend. Thats to say that if you are married and want one child, you are allowed to have sex once and they be sentenced to a lifelong period of absolute celibacy?
Have your child, then sew up that woman and geld yourself huh?
Thats not logical nor is it realistic and all that will happen in a wold where your views become mainstream is an increase in adultry.
Mark, you speak as though your views represent the mainstream of christian thoughts and beliefs. Let me be honest and assure you that you are very, very much mistaken on this manner.
I know many, many devout Christians and they would be shocked at your extreme views and strongly disagree.
This is why it is important to NOT allow radical religious leaders to come to power. This is because you are always pushing to force your extreme views on everyone, even moderate Christians.
Religion is a good thing, but only if taken in moderation and used to improve your personal spiritual quality of life instead of imposing your will on others.
Radical right wingers that take religion too far are the Christian equalivant of Al Queda, fundamentalists with a perverted view of things and an intolerance of others.
Holy moly, strap on that dynamite backpack and run for that bus.
Posted by Mark
"There are a lot of things wrong with the whole idea of contraception - for purposes of this discussion, however, we'll concentrate on the fact that it cuts a person off from the gift of life. When a person deliberately goes out to gratify himself sexually without any real chance of children, then a person has changed the sex act from a mutual act of love and devotion and turned it into a cruel act of self gratification. A sex act with a person while using contraception turns that person into a mere tool of one's personal pleasure - it makes the sex act not only worthless, but an act of depravity."
Most belong to an offshoot of the R.C. Church. Catholics are a rule are mostly moderate and not fundamentalist, although some are.
Even many catholics are coming to the views that the bible not be taken literally, word for word, but as a whole. I believe that the pope recently expressed that view as well.
Fundamentalists will often focus on a particular section and take it extremely literally while ignoring any contractatory passages.
Many will often misinterpret passages, taking them literally without consideration to the way of life as the passage was written
Posted by Cap'n Ron
"I believe the majority of those that oppose contraception are of the Roman Catholic faith. They make up the majority of Christians in the world, and probably the US."
I didn't know there was a war going on against contraception. No one tells me anything!! I know for a fact that those radical fundamentalist Christians have sex. I have seen some of their children. I just saw some prophet down in Utah that has 102 kids. He didn't get them by bowing his head. As a right winger, I am all for sex and contraception, as long as you are a responsible person. It saddens me to see 7th grade girls having babies. It saddens me that abortion is a form of birth control. What saddens me most is that some nutcases out there don't think that humans are sexual beings.
This letter is nothing more than Shrillary's call to the Feminazi storm troopers to prepare for the battle upcoming election.
She just trying ti raise this boogeyman to scare her loyal following out of complacency. The amusing part is that this is one old and tired line that doesn't resonate with but a few tired old harpies.
If this is all she's got she's shootin' blanks.
Get a new playbook, will you!?!
See that is a moderate right wing view that I can respect and agree with. Right wingers should be advocating for more contraception not wanting to ban it as it heads things off at the pass before life has even begun to form and leads to a reduction in abortion rates and unwanted pregnancies. As does proper sex education. Regan stopped Sex Ed in the 80's and it lead to an explosion in teenage sex and abortion rates as kkids did not know any better and were not learning it from home.
You radical rights can't have it both ways, you cannot hope to outlaw or ban pre-martial or non-conception intended sex. So either embrace contraceptives that prevent abortions and embrace sex ed that prevents and reduces abortions or accept abortions as a by-product of your short-sightedness. Or else bring by nazi style eugenics and sterilize everyone and there will be no dirty sex at all from you and then drown in a sea of immigrants that will take your place as the majority of the population in the next coming decades and then wonder what the hell happened?.
Or, come to your bloody senses and get on with your life instead peeking into your neighbors windows to see what they are doing behind closed doors.
Posted by uffy
"I didn't know there was a war going on against contraception. No one tells me anything!! I know for a fact that those radical fundamentalist Christians have sex. I have seen some of their children. I just saw some prophet down in Utah that has 102 kids. He didn't get them by bowing his head. As a right winger, I am all for sex and contraception, as long as you are a responsible person. It saddens me to see 7th grade girls having babies. It saddens me that abortion is a form of birth control. What saddens me most is that some nutcases out there don't think that humans are sexual beings."
axis, I don't know if you were ever a member of the RC Church,
but the pope's recent statements re the bible are nothing new. Re your statements on those who do not use contraception, you sound a bit intolerant to me. I have not heard anyone advocate the abolition of contraception nor have I heard anyone advocate the position that sex which is not procreative is immoral. As a married person who has only ever used Natural Family Planning and who has many friends who have lived this way as well, I can tell you that none of these "fundamentalists", as you so contemptuously refer to us, thinks that sex is dirty or not to be enjoyed or any of the other mischaracterizations you seem to subscribe to. You use an authoritative tone, but you really don't have a good understanding of what the RC Church teaches or what Christian
"fundamentalists" believe.
As far as forcing personal views on others, I think advocates of sex education in the school are far more guilty of that. You teach your kids what you want to, but stay the hell away from mine. I, as a parent, do not choose to abdicate my responsibility in this area. The schools (and our kids) would be much better off if they concentrated on the things they were meant for.
Captain Ron, there are many Christians couples - mainstream varieties - who are abandoning contraception and embracing Natural Family Planning. It is a phenomenon that I have read about over the past few years.
Mark, I have heard of some small comparative studies of couples who us NFP versus those who use contraception, and those who use NFP have a far, far lower rate of divorce.
Somebody really needs to buy old Hillary and her buddies a ticket back to Oz.
"you sound a bit intolerant to me. I have not heard anyone advocate the abolition of contraception nor have I heard anyone advocate the position that sex which is not procreative is immoral."
-- ??? You are hearing about it right now. In this tread and article. In Marks comments. Just need to open up yer peepers.
"I can tell you that none of these "fundamentalists", as you so contemptuously refer to us, thinks that sex is dirty or not to be enjoyed or any of the other mischaracterizations you seem to subscribe to. You use an authoritative tone, but you really don't have a good understanding of what the RC Church teaches or what Christian "fundamentalists" believe."
Ok, so you are a fairly moderate fundamentalist then, and not the RADICAL fundamentalists that I refer to. I hope that clarifies things. I don't really follow the radical right wing much, so am not aware of your various levels, degrees or classes of fundamentalism.
I do know that some fundamentalists such as Mark have far more radical views that yourself. I don't agree, but tolerate so long as their views are not rammed down my throat.
Wow. I mean... WOW!
We all know what you call people who embrace Natural Family Planning: PARENTS!
And we all know what you call millions of people around the world who follow the "condoms are evil" mantra: AIDS casualties.
This is astonishingly arrogant. My God, and yes, that is with a capital "G", gave me and the rest of the human race a brain to solve problems, not the least of which is the prevention of diseases.
Read this article, I DARE you:
"Born-again" Christians are more likely to go through a marital split than are non-Christians
Be VERY careful to notice WHERE this story is published.
Then, please, GET A FREAKING CLUE!
My wife and I use contraception because we've raised our two kids, who don't drink, don't swear inappropriately (there is a time and place for carefully chosen four letter words), get excellent grades, are both fans of The Daily Show and The Colbert Report, and next fall will both be in college, and we choose not to bring more children into this world with parents older than most grandparents. God has given me the wisdom to see the better path and the means to travel it.
But get your noses out of my wife's uterus. And for God's sake (with a capital "G") work on that CHRISTIAN divorce rate.
Radical fundamentalist??
The phrase RADICAL seems to be tossed around a lot here.
attach RADICAL to any phrase and it implys LOONEY.
Axis are you a RADICAL moderate??
Do you believe in teaching 5 th graders to use condoms?
7 th graders?
when where and how?
Informing children about sex is the PARENTS duty not some "RADICAL" marxist teacher in our school systems.
Nothing, and I mean Nothing, rivals 40,000,000 +
intentional deaths of our citizens by "RADICAL" abortion providers.
As ADULTS and contreception, follow your own beliefs.
Hello,
I am [the great, all knowing] Senator Hillary Clinton.
The sky is blue... the grass is green... the ocean is wet. Do you want to keep it that way? I need your help to fight Conservatives and their "antiquated, old fashioned, traditional American thinking and values"! Please sign my blank check and march to my music!
/signed/ Hillary, Presidential Candidate.
I have not seen the details on what Hillary is up to now. Does anyone know what she has hidden in this broad and all encompassing agenda item for Americans?
I guess I missed the news that ALL condoms, birth control, and contraceptive are being removed from the shelves throughout America. Really? That WOULD BE news -- A LIE -- and scare tactics, but [fabricated] news nevertheless!
Is Hillary really perhaps talking about the "abortion on demand" pill? Maybe all forms or contraception really are not being removed from shelves throughout America? Is what Hillary really saying that she wants that "abortion on demand" pill to be available right next to the condoms, and placed in dispensing machines, free of course, in all of America's schools?
Does this go back free contraception, condoms, birth control, and Viagra at the taxpayer's expense along with perhaps free, taxpayer funded abortion on demand at your convenient local neighborhood corner 24/7 abortion clinic? (Y'all come, hear. It's free!)
Does it include the latest in liberal mandated and updated courses on the correct way to put condoms on cucumbers? Perhaps she is advocating expanding this to pre-school. Gotta' get 'em early before their conservative parents can influence the thinking of our future [potential liberal] voters!
Does it include expanding the liberal policy that parents have no say or rights when it comes to what the liberal education system will teach their children? At taxpayer expense, of course!
Does this include taxpayer classes on self gratification as well as introduction to and indoctrination on homosexual and lesbian alternative lifestyles... over the objections of their parents?
Does this continue the liberal policy that parents have NO SAY in anything related to sex, contraception, sex education, or abortion? Does this continue the policy of abortions on 12 year olds, 14 year olds, and minors without any voice, say, or even notification to the parents? Does this mean free condoms from local schools, on demand, regardless of age?
Don't worry though. Of course, parental approval will still be required for a school to give their children an aspirin. Parental approval will still be required for any medical treatment too -- EXCEPT anything that involves sex, birth control, abortion.
What really is included in Hillary's blank liberal check for America? Before the average American [woman] signs up for anything that sounds good from Hillary, they might want to look into ALL of the DETAILS and see just what pig is hiding in that poke! You may not like or support all that's in there!
PARENTS... Before you blindly support HIllary, you may want to see what rights to raise, educate, and care for your children are being taken from you! If you know ALL THE FACTS you may CHOOSE NOT TO SUPPORT HILLARY!
As for her robotic, liberal Army... they will take up the cause and march to Hillary's band without knowing the details, the total scope, its implications, and where it could lead. Why not? Everyone should eat some of Hillary's Apple Pie -- it's good for you. (WRONG!!!)
AAR
Mark
I conclude from reading your remarks, you feel that sex in marriage is for producing children, and only that. Do you take into consideration those who are barren, or are unable, due to physical limitations, produce off-spring?
They could be in a loving & committed relationship, yet according to your remarks, they must refrain from expressing their love for each other through sex.
So, no resulting children - no sex. Pretty straight forward, Mark. Hope the Preacher practices what he preaches.
AAR, congrats, we actually agree on something, Hillary is bad news. Although we likely disagree on the reasons why.
I don't like here policies. In many ways, she is like a democrat that have vulcan mind melded with Bush, sharing his views on the Iraq war and she is also an elitist that will continue to favor the richest 10% of the country at the expense of everyone else.
Her and Rupert Murdoch and looking for ways to get into bed together, thats not good. I was surprised actually because Murdoch is currently in bed with the Bush administration. There goes the slanted right wing faux news if she gets in. It'll be slanted to the left after the election.
America needs a hard about, not a steady as she goes that hillary would bring. She has the money, the name and the influence but the gender puts her at a disadvantage especially since she is not offering a way out for america to get back on track which is what most people feel its seriously off course.
I don't think theres any GOP running against her in the primaries. Too bad, flushing her now would be for the best. Shes no Bill, thats all I can say.
axis, what I am hearing is a claim made by Hillary Clinton, someone with an agenda. Nothing anyone has posted here has proven to me that there is a war on contraception.
congressive, great parenting skills, and my nose is not in your wife's uterus and what have I said that made you feel that way. Don't be an idiot!
Sorry, pressed post before I was finished.
to continue.... As repects your referenced article, fundamentalist Baptists don't prohibit the use of contraception. The study I referenced showed people who don't contracept have a statistically lower rate of divorce than those who do. Christians who do contracept have a divorce rate that is approximately the same as the general population (actually, Christians who do contracept are the essentially the general population). So what the hell is your point? By the way, there are some non Christians who don't use contraception.
As for the prevention of diseases, disease prevention has little to do with the use of contraception - condoms don't even prevent pregnancy reliably. If anything the use of non-condom contraception encourages and aggravates disease spread and use of condoms gives a false sense of security against disease. In the places where AIDS is a serious problem, ie Africa and SE Asia, condoms and other forms of birth control are widely available with government support.
Canadian Observer --
How about if I try to give you an explanation.
Sexual relations are to be OPEN TO the possibility of pregnancy for them to be a truly unifying act. Otherwise you are holding back from that total giving of self to one's partner.
My wife and I are, in all likelihood, unable to have children -- a gut-wrenching number of miscarriages have pretty well established that. Yet we allow our sexual relations to be open to the possibility of the creation of a much-longed-for child, even as we recognize that age makes conception and bringing a child to term even more unlikely. The key is that we are OPEN TO reproduction, not that we actually reporduce -- God may just choose to work a miracle in our lives.
And C.O., use of rhythm and other methods of natural family planning is always acceptable -- it is ARTIFICIAL birth control that is not seen as morally licit in traditional Christian theology.
Gee Mark, You took on a big discussion here.
There are two different arguments and two different discussions here. One is the one Mark made about contraception in general (which I agree with him completely) btw, NFP is not the rythm method and is as effective as artificial birth control in planning children.
But that isn't what Hillary's letter was about. THe tiny group of us who follow church teaching in this manner have no desire to outlaw contraception at all. I have never even heard someone propose such a thing. What Hillary is referring to, of course, is abortion and abortificants. There isn't a proposal in the world asking for getting rid or restricting things like birth control pills and condoms. It is a scare tactic and that is all it is.
CeCe, odd response on the Baptist Standard study showing Christianity leads to a higher divorce rate. That's a HIGHER divorce rate. Not a slightly lower, or even a similar divorce rate. It's measurably HIGHER.
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/1_12/pages/divorce.html
There it is again, for those who missed it. How does this fit with the misconception (no pun intended) that natural family planning leads to happier marriages when right here is the study showing a HIGHER divorce rate by Christians? Are you saying the Baptist Standard is a lying, Christian-bashing publication? Unless you are saying there is an epidemic of NON-Christians converting to natural planning while Christians are using contraception... not likely, eh? I'd like to read your links if you would share them here.
And, thank you, I must agree with you about my parenting skills, mostly because I would not trade my two angels with anyone for anything. They never went through the rebellious teen thing, and make me proud every day.
If you haven't heard "anyone advocate the position that sex which is not procreative is immoral", then you haven't read Mark's posts here on this page who says "a sex act with a person while using contraception turns that person into a mere tool of one's personal pleasure - it makes the sex act not only worthless, but an act of depravity."
Do you agree?
Rightwingsparkle,
I believe you are right... and correct too! It's hard to know with Hillary though. What Hillary says is not necessarily what Hillary means. I don't have all of the keys to the "Hillary Code" yet, but I'm working on it!
Hopefully Americans, especially parents and those who plan to be parents, will check under the mat and behind door number 3 before they blindly follow Hillary down the yellow brick road. If not, they may find that they really do not agree with her on many key issues, but by then it could be too late.
Good to hear from a Texan. I grew up there and wish I were back!
AAR
Like I have said in the past, you can't legislate morality, just like you can't legislate intelligence. As an engineer, I have done a lot of root cause analysis. One thing that I have discovered about Americans and specifically too many American parents is that they are so ungodly selfish that they are not fit to bring other human beings into this world.
People like Hillary and other liberals as well as conservatives on the other side of the fence worry too much about "cosmetic" problems without dealing with the true cause of the problem. Outlawing contraception and abortion will do nothing, and I agree with some of the other folks that things will actually get worse.
I have an aunt and an uncle with 2 kids. Each of these adults carries with them a duffel bag full of prescription drugs everywhere they go. Their kids have been on drugs for hyperactivity and ADD and God only knows what else for their entire lives. The parents never paid any attention to them because they were so involved in themselves and feel there is a drug for every problem. Then they take other drugs for side effects. Then they take drugs for their upset stomachs from taking so many other drugs. Now these kids steal from everyone, screw everything in sight, and are constantly in trouble with the law. What do the parents do? Bail them out and go on with life. The kids have never learned about consequences and have zero moral fiber.
You tell me...is it that they should have used contraception and never had kids to begin with? If I know my uncle, he did it for the tax breaks. The problem isn't about contraception and abortion. It is about selfish people breeding even more selfish people. People have pre-marital and extra-marital sex because they are selfish. Conservatives want to pass the blame onto the schools and liberals want to pass the blame onto conservatives who try to legislate morality. Neither of these approaches will ever work. Until people can learn to be better parents and less selfish, the problems will never go away. Because these problems may never get better, and will probably get worse, I will continue to use contraception in my life because I cannot in good faith bring another person into this horrible, selfish, immoral world.
CECE, Hilliary is speaking of abortion and birth control in the traditional sense. Her agenda is to preserve the status quo. Since it is the current rule of law, Roe v Wade, its not an agenda, instead vigilance against those that would seek to change things.
/rant mode on
I will never understand the mindset of these radical that think its acceptable to forcefully push their invividual beliefs on other people. Some are just anti-abortion, however there is a growing push from the extreme religious right that is also against contraception, including condoms, as well as sex education. The biggest issue is the hypocracy of it all. If a pro-lifer was brutally raped and inpregnated, they would likely temporarily set aside their views and seek the abortion. Yet if it happens to someone else, its a different story.
If I was to develop a mindset that people over 30 age not allowed to have children tried to force this view on you, you would be outraged, yet you have no difficulty trying to do the exact same thing to others.
Life is sacred, dont abort yet its ok to send someone 17 year old son to iraq to die in an unnecessary war. Hypocracy. What they mean is SOME life is sacred, other life is worthless and of little value. Soldiers are an expendable form of life as are convicts. yet babies and undeveloped fetuses are sacred. If you can't remain true to your values, then your values are worthless.
The good book says "Thou shall not kill" Doesn't say thou shall not kill some kinds of people. These pro-life values are complete garbage and a complete fraud which is why I strongly disagree with them.
All that terri schiavo BS with the same pro-lifers. A vegetable with no hope of recovery and you want to forcibly keep her connected to an artificial machine until her body gives out, despite her personal wishes not to be kept in such a state. Her views and values are trampled over in favor of your own. I notice how quickly you all shut up about that as soon as the autopsy coma in showing she was indeed a vegatable and brain dead for a great some time. You're frauds. By the same token, you think nothing of stapping a convict to a table and shooting poisen into his veins. Bush executed more people than any governor in american history during his term as Texas govenor. Some of these people will turn out to be innocent as forensics develop, but too late they are dead from your sacred life lovers. Frauds, nothing more. Save life in some cases because it sacred, but end it in other cases because its expendable.
We don't have these problems here, which is why we have even more diffculty swallowing your complete B.S... Here we have liberals and conservative minded people, but they get along and value compromise and are not always looking for a way to ram their beliefs and views down someone elses throats.
Why do you care if someone has an abortion? Does it in any way affect you personally or your family? NO. Why do you care if someone is having sex? Does it in any way affect you personally or your family? NO. Why do you care is someone uses birth control pills or contraceptives? Does it in any way affect you personally or your family? NO.
Fact is you are nothing more than a bunch of nosy frauds that simply want to involve yourself in other people business that you have no business even trying to involve yourself in.
Instead of peeking into your neighbors bedroom windows to ensure thet they are not doing anything immoral, why not try inviting them over to a barbeque and work on getting along with one another and stop trying to control one anothers lives and how they live it? You certainly HATE it when someone with different views tries to control yours, so show the same respect and work towards rebuilding your country and uniting its people together instead of worrying about what color they are or what race they are, or what religion they are or what they do in the privacy of their own homes.
I do have to say, this is one of the main things I do not like about America, it is one of the most self-hating, bigoted, racist and intolerant nations on this planet. Thats because you are all worried about what everyone else is doing rather than just accepting them, embracing their diversity and working with them to create a strong, tolerant and productive society. America is REGRESSING, not progressing and its views like that that are at the very heart of why
/rant mode off
CO - by Mark's rigid definition, even NFP, which is endorsed by the Catholic Church, would would result in having sex with the deliberate intention of avoiding pregnancy. No latex or drugs involved, but same intent. So even these good Catholics are engaging in depraved acts of self gratification.
Mark - I think it's pretty clear that you are battling some personal demons here regarding putting off having children and that you've exceeded the boundaries and intentions of your own Catholic religion. Some people should wait, some people should stop and believe it or not, some people should never have children.
axis,
RE: "I will never understand the mindset of these radical that think its acceptable to forcefully push their invividual beliefs on other people."
Then why don't you and the rest of the liberal left quit trying to force your ideology, views, values, and lifestyle on the rest of us! Oh, I forgot, that's because the libreal way is the only way and what the rest of us want, or don't want doesn't matter!
RE: "...America, it is one of the most self-hating, bigoted, racist and intolerant nations on this planet."
Glad to know what you think of Americans! Guess that's what happens when a country like Canada goes liberal!
In case you would like to hear some conservative views about Canada from a Canadian, you might try reading some of Montgomery Burns posts on the Invision Power Board political forums at mapleleafweb.com website. I find his posts to be very interesting and I even agree with many of them!
AAR
congressive, read the article you cited again. No where did it mention contraception. The Baptist church does NOT, I repeat, NOT oppose the use of contraception. I suspect that most fundamentalist Baptists and other Christians use it. I don't know how to link to a site directly, but there is some information on the divorce rate and NFP in wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_family_planning. You keep assuming that fundamental Christians oppose contraception, which is not true.
I am in general agreement with what Mark has said about contraception. I will NOT say that married couples, who use contraception are involved in "dirty" or immoral sex. I can only make a moral judgement on my own behavior. The sexual act, by its very nature, is procreative. To willfully seperate the act from its nature is, in a word, unnatural and has the potential for all sorts of consequences. This is not to say those consequences will definitely follow, but it certainly has the potential.
This is a touchy subject, congressive, and I appreciate your willingness to discuss this reasonably. My children are young yet, haven't gotten to those teen years, but we have a good relationship and I am confident that the rebellious stage, if it occurs, won't last long.
axis,
My, you are prolific! From one thread to another, there's no way I can keep up with your tirades and ranting.
You and the other liberals really ARE AGAINST anything, everything, anyone, and everyone who is a Christian, conservative, or doesn't embrace YOUR view of the world, YOUR ideology, and what YOU "know" is best for the rest of us. Don't any Christians or people who believe in a God have any good or redeeming points? I guess not. Typical liberal attitude!
The fact is, people don't have to be Christians to oppose your agenda and ideology. What reason are you going to give to slander them, question their charter, and attack their values? Just the fact that they don't agree with you? Typical liberal attitude!
How about giving us you view on Muslims and their views too? I wonder how many of them agree with your views.
You say that Hillary is speaking of abortion and birth control in the traditional sense. Her agenda is to preserve the status quo. Since it is the current rule of law, Roe vs. Wade, its not an agenda, instead vigilance against those that would seek to change things.
And just how did that get to be the current rule of law? Because some activist judges said so, that's how. Check back through American history. There is no basis for the decision in Roe vs. Wade. You claim liberals are being vigilant against those who would seek to change things. Sure sounds like a liberal agenda to me.
Why don't we just let the people decide and let their members of Congress and legislatures vote on it? Why don't we just let a majority of the people decide if they want Roe vs. Wade reversed? Why fight to keep judges from the bench who may interpret the Constitution and laws they way they were written and intended?
Why? Because that doesn't suit your agenda, your ideology, and your idea of what's good for "us". You want YOUR ideology forced on us by activist courts when Congress and our legislatures don't see it YOUR way. You can't even "risk" letting the people or individual states decide what they want.
Do you agree that a parent has and should have no say, or the final say, in anything related to sex, abortion, or sex education where it concerns their children? Do you agree that a parent should have no say if their children want birth control pills? Do you agree that the parents should have no say in the matter, or even be told, if their 12 or 14 year old daughter is told by "planned parenthood" to "get an abortion"?
And what basis do you use to strip the rights from parents to raise their own children, to impose your views of abortion and sex on everyone else, to mandate and control any and everything related to abortions -- including taking away the rights of parents -- the rights they have had for thousands of years... why, Roe vs. Wade of course! Can't afford to let the people have a say on that little club, can we?
Do you live in an urban or suburban area? If so, would you allow a garbage dump to open next to your house? Would you have any problem if porno shops want to open on all sides of you? Do you have any ordinances governing other people's houses, yards, or actions? How about how they must mow their lawns? Any ordinances against noise, garbage, or trash on their property? What about if a person wants to park a trailer next to your house or a camper in their own yard (assuming you don't live in the country or a trailer park), any prohibitions against that? I can go on, but I'm sure you get the point. Well, if you don't most others do and they control and restrict the lives of others every day. But you don't have a problem with that because you want to keep your neighborhood clean and your surrounding the way you want to live.
It's alright for you to impose restrictions, limitations, or your ideology on others, but it isn't alright for those on whom you want to impose your agenda to fight back! Typical liberal attitude!!!!!!!
Pure and simple... You and other liberals do not tolerate or accept the views, values, morals, and lifestyles of others when they don't agree with your liberal roadmap for the world. And then you have the gall and nerve to say that you believe everyone should permitted to make their own decisions.
You want a Constitutional Amendment on your ideology? Let's do it the right way. Let's have Congress approve your Amendment and put it to the people for a vote! Oh, can't risk anything like that, can we?
AAR
Mark Noonan,
Your last post seemed hermetically impermeable to reason. There's no value in what you wrote today.
Maybe you are unable to change your views about contraception because they are merely opinion. But allow me to ask: Would you be willing to totally and completely reverse your views on the Evils of Contraception if I were to provide you with evidence to the contrary? If I were to show you that young families have greater failure rates in conservative than liberal states?
Answer me in a complete sentence if you reply, please.
Nick
Canadian,
It is a matter of using things as they are intended...do you use a hammer to turn a screw? A hammer and a screwdriver are both tools, so why won't one serve as well as the other?
As it regards sex - are you using it primarily for your personal gratification closed to the gift of life, or mutual gratification open to the gift of life? Sex has a purpose, Canadian; it isn't just a thing to do on the odd afternoon when you're bored.
I'm not going to ban sex or ban contraception - people have a right to be fools, after all. But I do wish that people would think about what they are doing as regards sex...it is a bit hard to explain; you either understand it, or you don't. I only figured it out a few months ago. Clear as a bell it is to me - only have sex with your spouse, always have it as open to the gift of life as is physically possible for you. If everyone only engaged in this sort of sexual activity, then the happiness of the world would be increased massively...
Nick,
I don't think you'd be able to come up with the actual evidence...a comparison between, say, California and Alabama on divorce rates would have too many variables between the States for rational comparison...as a for instance, perhaps Alabama has the higher divorce rate, but maybe a far higher number of people in California just never marry and so when they break up, it doesn't show in the stats.
What I would like to see is a comprehensive study of the subject - try and get, oh, 1,000 people who just got married to participate and then watch them over a 20 year period and see how many divorce and then do a comparitive study of their lifestyles.
You can call me sealed off to reason, but it is reason which has led me, step by step, away from a pro-choice, pro-contraception, pro-wait until you are "ready" mindset. It took a lot of thought and soulsearching before I finally figured out that, sexually, the past 100 years has been a complete disaster for the human race...for crying out loud, some peoples are literally dying out because of the combination of birth control and abortion! The last Russian dies about 2150, as does the last German and Japanese...unless they give up the contraception and abortion and start having some children.
Contraception is a dodge - the weaker, cowardly choice. Much braver is to eschew sex or happily accept whatever the consequences are. It should also be kept in mind that contraception and abortion were first pushed by elitists to get "inferior" people to stop breeding so much...
Give it up - toss the condoms in the trash, have sex only with your spouse and enjoy the whole sex act, not just the part where you have an orgasm.
Extra,
And you are the all-knowing person who will determine who shouldn't ever have children?
Oh, you're not?
Then who is?
Please provide a name and address...I'm really curious to meet this person...
Of course there are personal demons here - I'm ashamed of the waste of time and life that I've gone through...I am, on the other hand, forgiven for that and now move forward with that part of my life firmly behind me. I'm just trying to prevent even just one other person from following the dunderheaded path I followed in matters marriage and sex.
As an aside, NFP is open to the gift of life...as a for-instance, I'm a result of NFP...but it also does work, because there was a 7 year long NFP gap between myself and my younger brother...and given that mom and dad had four children between 1959 and 1964, we have some really serious proof that NFP works given they went from 1964 to 1971 wihtout any additional children.
You know what I am feeling right now as I type this? A bubbling, effervesant love of life surging through me...I'm happy and I'd have others experience this happiness...but you won't experience it if you're cutting yourself off from life because you are afraid of what life might throw at you....as for me, I welcome it...good, bad and indifferent, just let me have it...the more life, the better...
Mark
If a married couple is beyond the age of procreation and still engage in the sexual aspect of their relationship, how does that square with the Church? Knowing there will be no possibility of children and still having an active sexual life, will they rot in hell? Don't forget, this is strictly for personal enjoyment, and in no way will bear fruit, if you see what I mean.
Mark,
Good points about the conflicting variables between states. If you already know which states have high divorce rates and which have the low divorce rates, I won’t discuss that.
If you’re referring to the Bible, when you wrote of your disapproval of the pervasive wait until ready attitude, Abram did not wait until he was “ready.” He agreed with his barren wife to sleep with the maid Hagar to conceive Ishmael (Genesis 16). You may argue that Ishmael was a blessing. Okay. But God’s will was for Abraham to conceive of Isaac.
Abram was not “ready” to conceive of Isaac (17:16-18) because his wife was barren. Look at verse 19 and it clearly states that Abraham’s name was changed, his wife’s name was changed, and his wife became ready to conceive, even though she was beyond childbearing years.
You are right that bearing children is a blessing (Genesis 20:17), but only half right. There is no indication that it is a requirement in the Bible. I hardly think they are a blessing in Matthew 24:19. We need to consider that there is more than one side to this issue. Many variables, Mark.
I agree with you that abortion is murder. I have given you credit for many of your points. What do you acknowledge?
To close, if you choose to have children with your wife, great. But don’t meddle in other people’s affairs. Don’t make in into an obligation for others. It may be a cultural expectation, but not a spiritual one.
Nick.
Mark - of course not. It's up to individuals to decide whether they want to have children. The worst advise I ever hear is when people tell young couples to go ahead and have kids regardless of whether they feel ready. Kids are a huge commitment and people should only have them if BOTH prospective parents really want to have them. It's not so much an issue of having enough money, or the right house or school system, but rather a desire and wilingness to make the sacrifice.
Nobody can decide that for another person.
Glad to hear you are feeling so happy. Sundays are always a little strange around here. ;-)
Hello, AAR my litle fascist buddy, I see you are posting her after being slice and diced in the other topic and exposed as the fascist you are.
I see many "anti-Canuck" comments like you mention way above. Most are amusing because a lot are embarassingly ignorant and show that they do not know the first thing about what they are talking about. Thats the difference between here and there. Here, most elementry school children can tell you the name of all the provinces and most of the states as well as the names of the prime minister. In a recent random test of 60% of American HIGH SCHOOL students were unable to name the current president of the united states and most did not even know where canada was and had difficulty finding it on the globe. The average Canadian off the street knows current events happening in canada as well as the united states. Canadian Newspapers carry most major US stories as well.
Ask an american off the street who the Canadian prime minister is and if they even know where canada is, (Good chance they will have trouble) theres an 80/20% chance they won't have a clue. Try it yourself, go outside and ask a joe on the sidewalk and see for yourself. Point is we are a well educated lot, with an eye on whats going on and in many cases, Canadians have shown that they have a better eye for whats going on in america then some americans do. The point is also that Americans are increasingly becoming isolationists, with kids being taught in school that only things that happen in America are important. American foreign policy increasing alienates all other nations in the world. Bush has succeeded in alienating the USA from the rest of the world better than any other president in history. during my last trip to Mexico, I saw that American tourists were actually posing as Canadians with canada flag shirts, because the locals will treat you COMPLETELY different if they think you are american because most treat them so badly down there.
Americans are seen as arrogant bullies and thats by your allies. Bush has done that. Time to smarten up and realize that the united states is a minority in the world and needs strong allies to get things done.
As for your post just above,
My view on Muslims? Simple. 90% are honest, peaceful people no different than you or eye. You like to focus on the 10% that are extremists fundamentalists while at the same time ignoring the 10% or more of Christians that are also militant, often starting hate groups or organizations. You conventiently ignore your bad eggs while focusing on the bad eggs of another religion or culture.
"You say that Hillary is speaking of abortion and birth control in the traditional sense. Her agenda is to preserve the status quo. Since it is the current rule of law, Roe vs. Wade, its not an agenda, instead vigilance against those that would seek to change things.
"And just how did that get to be the current rule of law? Because some activist judges said so, that's how."
-- Actually no. Most of the Supreme court judges were moderates, not activists. Have a historical look at some of the judges other desisions and you will see them mostly fair and balanced, no doubt siding with many others that don't involve something that violates your narrow views.
Roe vs wade was a 7 to 2 decision. Your problem is that as you are intolerant of anyone elses opinions and views, you are only left to conclude that they must be "liberal activists", because the politial scale goes from you directly to extremest liberal. Thats how ignorant and out of touch you are with reality. Things are eithe black or white in your world, AAR. No shades of grey.
"The fact is, people don't have to be Christians to oppose your agenda and ideology. What reason are you going to give to slander them, question their charter, and attack their values? Just the fact that they don't agree with you? Typical liberal attitude!"
-- I am not attacking your values, other than pointing out the ones that are completely hypocratic frauds. I call a spade a spade. Either you cherish all life or you don't cherish it at all. Its totally fraudlent to say you oppose abortions because you cherich life, but you approve of 17 year old soldiers dying in an illegal war because they lives are expendable. Those are fraudlent values. It's "thou shall not kill" PERIOD . You see "thou shall not kill (some people)"
Sorry if the truth of the fraudlency of your "values" offends you. Likewise you can't be "tough on crime" and then buy that cheap, stolen stuff from the back of the truck because its dirt cheap. Those are fraudlent values. You use them to prop yourselves up and make yourselves feel better, but they can just as quickly be set aside when they interfere with your own personal best interests.
As for those "true values" that you hold dear, I do not attack those either. I may disagree with them, which is my right as this is a free country, not a fascist state that you would prefer to have.
The difference between us is that I can disagree, share my views yet be tolerant your yours. You on the other hand, are intolerant of mine and would love to be able to FORCE your views onto me.
If tolerance and understanding makes me bad in your books, then I am proud to be one!
"Why don't we just let the people decide and let their members of Congress and legislatures vote on it? Why don't we just let a majority of the people decide if they want Roe vs. Wade reversed?"
-- Simple. Because Roe v Wade is a case where a Texas anti-abortion rule was seen to be unconstitutional and challenged in court where it was ultimately decided in Supreme court. If you allow congress to over-ride Supreme court decisions, then you throw out 200 years worth of constitutional protections to prevent the people from overbearing legislation. You throw out the constitution and you have a fascist state, which is what you want AAR. You spit on your own constitution and freedoms for the sake of your own short sighted values. Thats pretty sick and some of your ancestors would likely vomit at your anti-american sentiment. You aren't a proud american, you are a proud conservative. Pretty sad in my books.
"Why don't we just let a majority of the people decide if they want Roe vs. Wade reversed? Why fight to keep judges from the bench who may interpret the Constitution and laws they way they were written and intended? Why fight to keep judges from the bench who may interpret the Constitution and laws they way they were written and intended?"
-- Now thats beyond ignorant and venturing into the moronic territory. Judges interpret the constitution and laws each and every single day. Thats what they do. You want to live in a police state instead? Move to IRAN! You would love it there, and you could even start up your own fire and brimstone cult.
If the majority of the people wanted it dummy, they would be pressing for a constitutional ammendment. All I see is you wingnuts pushing for that, which are the minority.
The rest of the country, while many not necessarily agreeing, accept the supreme court decisions. Theres lots of desisions that I personally don't agree with, but I accept them, because thats how the constitution works in a democracy.
"You want YOUR ideology forced on us by activist courts when Congress and our legislatures don't see it YOUR way. You can't even "risk" letting the people or individual states decide what they want."
-- Nope. I just want you to accept the rule of law and the constitutional protections your founding fathers put into place to protect you. You would be outraged if a liberal congress had the final say on all matter of law. But its ok if a conservative congress has it instead. You spit on your country and constitution and wish for a police state instead. That makes you a fascist.
"Do you agree that a parent has and should have no say, or the final say, in anything related to sex, abortion, or sex education where it concerns their children? Do you agree that a parent should have no say if their children want birth control pills? Do you agree that the parents should have no say in the matter, or even be told, if their 12 or 14 year old daughter is told by "planned parenthood" to "get an abortion"?"
-- I never said that. I think in the case of the very young that are unable to make there own decisions, definately yes. However, your children are a product of your conception. You do not OWN them as was the view some time ago. As they grow older, they are entitled to make some of their own decisions, especially when it concerns their life, their body and their liberities.
Do I think parents should be advised? Absolutely which the exception in cases where it would endanger the well being of the child be doing so. Talk to your child and give them your thoughts and trust that you raised them well enough that they are going to make the right desision.
Do I think you should have the right to refuse your 14 year old child birth control pills, ignoring their personal wishes? No. If you as a parent, are unable to appreciate and accept that your 14 year old child is capable of some free and independant thought then that doesn't say much about how your raised your child does it? Likewise if your 14 year old chooses to become a catholic, rather than a baptist like you, thats their choice. You cannot drag them into your church, and handcuff them to the pew and force your views into your children. Thats just wrong.
"And what basis do you use to strip the rights from parents to raise their own children, to impose your views of abortion and sex on everyone else, to mandate and control any and everything related to abortions -- including taking away the rights of parents"
-- I don't. I am for allowing people to choose whats best for them and their lives. Allowing CHOICE is not forcing anything or imposing anything. It simply leaves the door open for people to make their own decisions. You on the other hand want to FORCE you views on everyone else and IMPOSE your views on everyone else. Thats the difference. CHOICE vs FORCED DECISION. No one forces you to have an abortion, that would be just as wrong as forcing someone not to have one. Your problem is that you just can't get you mind around the fact that allowing choice is not a bad thing. That is unless the shoe is on the other foot. If someone FORCED you into an abortion, you would be outraged. Yet forcing them into carrying a child to term you have no problems with. You are so shortsighted you are simply unable to see just how big of a hypocrite you are.
Do you live in an urban or suburban area? If so, would you allow a garbage dump to open next to your house? Would you have any problem if porno shops want to open on all sides of you? Do you have any ordinances governing other people's houses, yards, or actions? How about how they must mow their lawns? Any ordinances against noise, garbage, or trash on their property?
-- No these would not be my choice and would fight them legally if affecting my quality of life and trust that the court will arrive at the correct decision. That is my right however. You are for taking the power of the courts away and giving it to congress instead. So if I was a congressman, and I wanted to open a pornoshop right next door to YOUR home, by your fascist wishes, thats the end of it. Congress has the final say and thats it. So you would be ok with this? How about your congressman likes what you have done with your property and so he decides to expropriate it from you for his own personal use. You are ok with this? You want ot give conggress absolute power over law remember? Somehow, when the shoe is on the other foot, it just doesn't seem to fit the same does it?
"It's alright for you to impose restrictions, limitations, or your ideology on others, but it isn't alright for those on whom you want to impose your agenda to fight back! Typical liberal attitude!!!!!!!"
-- This is where you show your incredible level of ignorance yet again. Roe v Wade is not a restriction, it is not a limitation, it is an open door to alllow free independant choice. You are the one that seeks to implement restriction, you are the one that seeks to implement limitations on others. Yet you try to blame us for everything you want to do! You have the agenda, not us. You're either incredible dumb, ignorant or a combination of the 2. Which is it?
"You want a Constitutional Amendment on your ideology? Let's do it the right way. Let's have Congress approve your Amendment and put it to the people for a vote! Oh, can't risk anything like that, can we?"
-- NO, you want the constitutional ammendment. We are fine with the existing rule of law that has existed and protected the constitution for over 200 years. You would seek to simply throw that away at the expense of 275 million other americans to achieve your personal short sighted goals. If Roe v wade is overturned by another Supreme court decision, then we will have to live with it, won't we. You should feel the same. If not, why not move to china or iran that already feel the way you do rather than trying to reinvent the wheel and change the country, change the laws and system of government for your own selfish desires? You are definately a poor american, you are definately a poor patriot and you spit on your own constitution and rights and freedoms so why do you stay if you hate your country so much? Stop being a self-hating american and move on to an oppressive society where you will better feel at home. Other americans love their country, are passionate patriots, would die for protecting the constitution and their rights and freedoms that you would easily trade away for a six pack of beer.
Mark, I think what you are trying to say is that sex should be seen as something special and not cheapened. Is that correct, because if so I agree with that, you are just going about expressing yourself in a heavy handed, fire and brimstone kind of way.
Posted by Mark:
"I'm not going to ban sex or ban contraception - people have a right to be fools, after all. But I do wish that people would think about what they are doing as regards sex...it is a bit hard to explain; you either understand it, or you don't."
As it regards sex - are you using it primarily for your personal gratification closed to the gift of life, or mutual gratification open to the gift of life?
It's very funny that it never even occurs to Noonan that there's a third option--mutual gratification with no intention of reproduction--that tens of millions of peole engage in every day. It's either trying to get the old lady pregnant or the very depths of tawdriness. Aboslutely no middle ground whatsoever. And then, hilariously, he gets all huffy at the notion of Christians thinking sex is dirty even as he personifies that very notion.
But bear in mind that he's got a heapin' helpin' of good ol' Catholic guilt that he wants to share, so he'll gladly try to impart to one and all the joy of shame and the shame of joy.
You know how when you pay your gas bill in winter you can opt to pay an extra dollar to help those who mightn't have enough to pay their own gas bill? That's how I feel about my income tax return. Every year I'd gladly pay an extra tax solely to buy all the contraceptives that the whacky leftwingers need. If they never brought another child into the world, it would be fine with me. They'd eventually work their entire demographic group out of existence and that can't be all bad.
A sex act with a person while using contraception turns that person into a mere tool of one's personal pleasure - it makes the sex act not only worthless, but an act of depravity.
Give me a break. If the sole-SOLE-purpose of sex was to procreate, it wouldn't feel that good. And the female orgasm isn't necessary to conceive a child. So why are we capable of not just orgasm, but multiple orgasm? Seems like God missed a deign flaw or two.
Also, Mark, consider the fact that women, unlike men, are not perpetually fertile. Women can only get pregnant if a.) they ovulate and b.) the egg is fertilized by sperm. If you have sex with your wife when she knows she isn't ovulating (and she will, if she practices NFP contraception), you aren't "open" to the possiblity of children, because there is zero chance that particular encounter will result in a child. Therefore, you're just...how did you put it? Passing the time on the odd afternoon when you're bored? Frankly, I can't think of a better way to spend an afternoon than making love with my husband. How sad it must be to be you!
Norah,
Do you bother to read things before you comment? I, personally, and the product of NFP...a little mistake when dad got a gleam in his eye lo, those many years ago...women's periods are pretty regular, but they ain't clockwork...and that appears to be by the design of the Creator, to ensure we don't get too cocky about things.
Also, did I say anywhere that the sole purpose of sex is procreation? I said sex has a purpose - and the purpose isn't personal gratification.,
Sees,
You really got to pay attetion - I want you to go out, right now, and have sex with wild abandon...get toys and oil and really go at it...but only do it with your spouse, and don't cut yourself off from the gift of life...you'll enjoy it more.
It is the way we are designed - use yourself only as directed, consult a theologian if you are unsure of this...
axis,
Fire and brimstone? I don't believe I've consigned anyone to damnation over this...I'm just pointing out how monmentally stupid we are about sex...all our modern, "progressive" ideas about sex have just made a hash out of it...turned it from a wonderful human expression into something we fret over and have problems with... Sex is a gift from God...Satan has convinced us to turn it into a tool for misery...
axis,
RE: "Hello, AAR my litle fascist buddy, I see you are posting her after being slice and diced in the other topic and exposed as the fascist you are."
I had work to do but I see you have been busy with your name calling and character assignation during my absence.
Sliced and diced, I don't think so. I'm learning how you and the rest of the liberals operate. One has to draw fire in order to better judge the enemy, I mean opposition. So far nothing new.
I not sure yet, but I'm thinking I may need to stick more to simple, easy to comprehend thoughts and specific examples rather than broad concepts so you can better comprehend what I mean by what I say! Like all liberals, you do have difficulty understanding my point, probably because you aren't paying attention to what I say. You are too busy and self amused figuring out your next witty reply.
With so many ravings, I do