Like Podhoretz, I'd like to take some time to remind my fellow conservatives just what Bush's brand of conservatism has brought us: victory in war, tax cuts, conservative judges, faith based initiatives, a start on school choice, a start on entitlement reform, tort reform, increased GOP majorities...and, of course, preventing either a President Gore or a President Kerry from wrecking the nation. President Bush took office on January 20th, 2001 and immediately starting doing things for conservatism - and he's not stopped to catch his breath from that moment to this.
Sure enough, President Bush has done some things that conservatives - including this conservative - take exception to. The most notable thing along these lines is the misbegotten campaign finance reform. Point blank, President Bush shouldn't have signed that abominable bill...but he did, and now its there and there's no way to reach into the past and make it as if it had never been. The only thing we can do is work to reform the reform in future years. What this shows is that no one is perfect - that there isn't a magic elixir which will make everying perfect all at once.
The latest thing the President has done is work out a plan for immigration reform. Some say that his heart isn't in it - I can't believe that. He might have slighted the issue for five years, but now that he's staked out a position with clarity, we must presume - because all evidence of past actions compells us to presume - that this is what he firmly believes is the right thing to do. There can be many exceptions taken to President Bush's plan - and that is fine and dandy: he's President of the United States, not Lord High Master of America...he's proposed and laid down his markers, but now it is up to the rest of the political system to do its bit - it is in Congress where, if you are disappointed with this or that provision, you can register your desires.
The one thing which would be absurd for a conservative to do is to withdraw support from President Bush because he didn't follow a conservative's desires to the letter - to attack President Bush is just to make it more likely that some odd Democrat or other will eventually emerge in charge of the show...and if you think Bush has done things you don't like, just wait until you get a taste of Speaker Pelosi alligned with President Hillary Clinton.
Politics is the art of the possible and we dare not let the perfect become the enemy of the good...remember that, fellow conservatives, as we hash out this immigration issue.
When the U.N. is at your door and you have no rights get back to me on this guy Bush. And I voted for him, wake up now or you will be just another silly sheep.
Posted by: Brett at May 17, 2006 09:55 AM
I think a lot of people are envisioning the National Guard being deployed to the border with full Iraq style camo and weapons, repeling those illegals.
But what they will actually be doing is the jobs of the Border patrol. Typing, watching monitors, visual patrols, filling out paper work.
They will have no weapons allowed at all and will almost be like rent a cops helping the existing border patrols.
Seems to me, a much better use of money is to actually spend the needed funds to hire 5-10000 more guards. GOP has shot that idea down again and again and once finally approved, they downgraded it and robbed funding from it again and again.
Illegals come here for work and a better way of life and Americans HIRE them. Crack down on the farm owners and Factory owners and Corporation hiring the illegals and you will improve the situation dramatically.
Thats not what this administration wants though, they want a slave class of people to work for below normal wages to serve their corporate campaign donators.
Posted by: axis at May 17, 2006 10:06 AM
They will have no weapons allowed at all and will almost be like rent a cops helping the existing border patrols.
It's going to be interesting to see the outcome when something like this happens.
A blockbuster exposé in the magazine's March issue notes that over the past five years, there have been 120 documented incidents of Mexican military/police incursions, sometimes resulting in the arrest of Mexican army personnel on U.S. soil by Border Patrol agents.
The magazine cites incidents such as the one in March 2000 where soldiers in two Mexican army Humvees fired on Border Patrol agents in El Paso, Texas, and another in October, when 10 Mexican soldiers fired at a Border Patrol helicopter in California. (emphasis - mine)
Rep. Tom Tancredo, chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, said in a May 2002 press release that there were 23 incursions by Mexican authorities in 2001 alone.
If this is continuing to occur (and I wouldn't trust the MSM to report it if it were), I'm betting the NG won't be unarmed for long.
Posted by: Retired Spook at May 17, 2006 10:34 AM
Thats not what this administration wants though, they want a slave class of people to work for below normal wages to serve their corporate campaign donators.
Which is true and galling. These are jobs Americans woudld do at a fair wage.
Posted by: Ash at May 17, 2006 10:36 AM
It was a good speach to bad he will never get tne bill out to sign
Posted by:
dan at May 17, 2006 10:39 AM
higher (minority) wages is implict in the observation that illegal hispanic immigration "oppress minorities who can't earn a decent wage".
yet those same higher wages would attract yet more illegal immigrants.
course this ignores the boyz on the block who evidently have no work ethic since these same "lower" wages attract illegal hispanic immigration.
one wonders if "no work ethic" is the result of gererations of (failed) new deal, social welfare dependency otherwise the lower rung jobs would be filled so there'd be no attraction for...illegal hispanic immigration.
funny how things work, aint it?
Posted by: OhioOrrin at May 17, 2006 10:49 AM
Every President since Truman who's had a second term has had terrible trouble, including with his base. It appears to be the nature of the beast. He's not running again in 2008 and can have no real coattails. And politics is often about "what have you done for me lately?" Plus the base that worked hard to re-elect him was fighting as much agin' the other guy as for him. So now that he's not up for election again they complain.
Take a look at that pattern and tell me it doesn't match pretty much every 2nd term President since Truman (and including Truman).
Frankly, whether you voted for Bush or not, at this point whining about the administration means a lot less than the upcoming congressional elections. Whether it's immigration or anything else, it's the House and the Senate you have to persuade.
Posted by: Dean Esmay at May 17, 2006 10:52 AM
I agree with Ash and Axis. Bush wants to uphold his image of the Compassionate Conservative-Compassionate because he allows illegals to come in and do jobs "Americans won't do", and Conservative because he's sending the National Guard to the border. In reality, he's rewards large corporate campaign donors, who an ample supply of cheap labor, and don't want to be hindered by having to pay benefits or a living wage. Bush wants a permanent ownership society, which also explains why existing laws prohibiting companies from hiring illegal workers were ony enforced three times in the last year.
If existing laws were enforced, sending the National Guard to the border would be unnecessary, as the jobs would simply dry up, and the illegal workers would stop risking their lives to come here. Since Republicans love free markets, supply and demand would be the rule of the day. Instead we have an oversupply-a labor force willing to work very hard for very little.
Posted by: kritter at May 17, 2006 11:04 AM
Axis,
Just can't drop the leftwing nastiness for even a full day, can you? Just how do you get through life being that mean and spiteful? You, too, Ash...
Posted by: Mark Noonan at May 17, 2006 11:44 AM
Dean,
The second term does seem to be accursed...and I think part of the problem is so many of the staffers wear themselves out in the first term...some day we'll have a President who will send his staff home at 5pm and give them weekends off; preventing that burnout and saving them up for emergencies and for the second term.
But it also does seem a bit obsessional in America today...both left and right are entirely fixated on what President Bush is doing...granted, he's massively important, but he's also not running for re-election...he should be a fixed point around which the left and right argue for 2006 and 2008 advantage...what has happened is that he has become THE issue...
Never would have thought that a moderately conservative GOP President would be the reason for so much heartache...I mean, look at some of these comments: he wants a "slave" class! For crying out loud...what are these people going to do on January 20th, 2009 and their whole worldview collapses because President Bush isn't in office?
Posted by: Mark Noonan at May 17, 2006 11:48 AM
Spook,
That is my dad's big concern...NG to the border and gets into a firefight with the Mexican Army...I hope to God that Fox understands how delicate this situation is and that he brings some reliable troops to the border...some who may, for a week or so, not take a bribe to help out the smugglers...
Posted by: Mark Noonan at May 17, 2006 11:52 AM
Very true Ash, Many Americans would be willing to do the jobs many of these immigrants are doing, but not for $1.50 or $2 a hour.
Sadly, these corporations won't pay fair wages when they can get cheaper labour instead because then they would only profit in the hundreds of millions instead of billions.
This is a case of capitalism gone awry folks, nothing more. NAFTA allowed these big companies into Mexico which squashed higher wages there, so they come here instead.
But its true, nail the corporations hiring these people and you will have solved a big piece of the problem.
----------------
Posted by Ash
"Which is true and galling. These are jobs Americans woudld do at a fair wage"
Posted by: axis at May 17, 2006 12:13 PM
Mark, you are mistaking mean and nastiness for frank discussions. From our perspective, this is what is happening. Theres no venom here at all...
Posted by: axis at May 17, 2006 12:15 PM
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but it looked like John was talking about immigration. I have no problem with the current system of immigration.
My problem is with the lawbreakers from Mexico, invading our land.
Posted by:
Art Patscheck at May 17, 2006 12:20 PM
Mark,
Podhoretz can worry and whine all he wants about conservatives becoming "rigid" or "dogmatic". Truth is, some of us are not going to compromise our priniciples. As someone who is married to a LEGAL immigrant, if an amnesty bill goes thru, the GOP can forget about ever having my support. I've already quit donating fundage over the issue, my vote is all I've got left. NO amount of "democrats are worse" or "the need for conservative judges" will ever change the fact that THIS issue is a pillar of my and other's support for the GOP.
Karl Rove, are you reading this?
Posted by:
JAF at May 17, 2006 12:30 PM
Posted by:
JAF at May 17, 2006 01:08 PM
The best thing we can do with our Guest Worker program is to have all illegals register and have social security payments made from guest workers go to citizens as bonus social security $$$. It has long been said that SS won't be around twenty years from now....it could be.
I see nothing wrong with have guest worker contributions got to support citizens and social security.
The only thing I would ask is that the government not take this money with their drawers full of IOUs, but actually set it aside so that there will be money twenty years from now. ml
Posted by: minnesota libertarian at May 17, 2006 01:08 PM
The reason many on the Left are fixated on Bush, is that his policies are polarizing. He campaigned in 2000 as a moderate, whose foreign policy was going to be humble (remember that one??) but he has pandered relentlessly to the far right wing of the party. Ths social conservatives get conservative Supreme Court appts, attempts to ban gay marriage, and attempts to pass an amendment banning flag burning(like that's even a problem). His corporate base gets tax cuts cheap, willing labor., and no-bid contracts in Katrina and Iraq. The middle -class and poor get the shaft as wages stagnate and energy costs skyrocket. Something for everyone!
Posted by: kritter at May 17, 2006 02:10 PM
Our socialist poster from the north gives himself away with this,
"because then they would only profit in the hundreds of millions instead of billions."
More "corporate campaign contributions" went to democrat Presidential candidates than Bush. Oh yeah, eh?
Posted by: Bane of Liberals' Existence at May 17, 2006 02:17 PM
So being in favor of market economics and the free flow of capital, having a strong, job creating economy and tax generating corporate profits which get reinvested into the economy for further growth and/or distributed to shareholders isn't considered being a conservative. Wow, guess I was rooting for the wrong side in the Cold War all these years. Thanks for the heads up. Well, I guess there's always Cuba.
I must have hit the Kos website by mistake.
Posted by: Rich at May 17, 2006 02:34 PM
Mark, basically I am a happy go lucky person who values his time away from society by hiking and backpacking on a regular basis. I work from home doing what I enjoy. I can laugh at myself. I pick my battles. And the one battle that I must stick to is the class war that is currently being waged against middle to lower class Americans. I write this as I see your hero on television and a bevy of his haves and have mores as he extends the tax cuts for the have mosts.
I suppose this is a strategy based on the felonious theory of "trickle down" economics. It's baloney, pure and simple. Meanwhile the have mosts can continue to hire immigrants for $5 an hour. they can export jobs to India.
I guess I am angry. But I've always rebelled against unfairness and I'm too old now to change.
Posted by: Ash at May 17, 2006 02:49 PM
Bane of Liberals' Existence, I never mentioned campaign contributions, neither my comments nor this topic have anything to do with that at all.
Yes, both sides are guilty of accepting contributions from big business. Historically, however Republicans collects many times the big business bribes than Democrats do because most Republicans favor the rich and big business while many Democrats favor the middle class.
You see some o the same here, although there are more stringent ethics rules than in America
Posted by: axis at May 17, 2006 03:18 PM
Ash,
Class war? Oh, for Pete's sake...there are no classes: that, in and of itself, is an invention of hate-filled leftwingers designed to make a convenient target of hatred and envy...
Why can't you just be happy with what you've got? And if you want to help the poor, why don't you just get yourself down there and use your own resources to do it?....
Posted by: Mark Noonan at May 17, 2006 04:29 PM
I'm doing everything I can, Marker. One thing I do is to call you on every angle of greed and avarice. Tax cuts for the billionaires for one. You announce your ignorance with the statement that there are no classes. Denial is simply the hypocracy of the hate filled right wingers. they've got it and don't want to share.
I'll continue to call you on this...
Posted by: Ash at May 17, 2006 06:30 PM
Ash,
There are no classes - a class structure to society implies that someone in one class cannot become a member of another class...have you looked, lately, to see the percentage of rich people who started out poor? What is really rich is that the majority of those who live off inherited wealth are liberal/left...and no one ever advocates taxing that rich, only the "rich" who are actually working for a living.
Envy is a terrible thing to carry 'round...you should drop it and start dealing with people as God intended: one by one based upon their merits.
You, too, are imperfect, you know?
Posted by: Mark Noonan at May 17, 2006 08:24 PM
At least this president "acts" when things start to go wrong,which is the very thing that I admire about him "he's got the guts" to take control,more so than most past presidents.
Posted by: Jeremiah at May 17, 2006 10:02 PM
Well Mark you do not get to define classes. Social and economic classes are well defined in this and in all societies. I did not imply there isn't mobility (unless you are reading invisible ink). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you thought I meant caste, which, Mark is a completely different thing.
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge class divisions based on income, or education, or property ownership, networth, reputation is not being honest.
I envy no one Mark. I am doing exactly what I want, I just looked out my deck and saw a ray of sunlight filtering through the clouds and illuminating the Flat Irons, mmmmm. No I envy no one. (And my belt buckle is farther off the groung than you are tall)
Posted by: Ash at May 17, 2006 10:05 PM
"At least this president acts when things go wrong which is the very thing I admire about him"
I think at critical times he has been disconnected-ie with Katrina and the ports deal. Plus little has been done to create a long-term solution to the energy crisis.
The times he has acted, his policies have led us into disaster---for example unilateral invasion of Iraq-invasion was successful, but he didn't understand that he needed to provide security for the Iraqis, and now its a mess.
Posted by: kritter at May 17, 2006 11:34 PM
Mark, you are dancing rings around the semantics circle. Saying there are no classes in America shows your out of touch with things. Last time I checked, you couldn't be rich and poor at the same time. Can't be well off and filty rich at the same time either. Shoots down your litmas test for classes.
In most first world countries, you have the
Poor, which can range from homeless to near the poverty line. Usually minimum wave workers or less.
You have the middle class, which is mainstream America, with a moderate level of income. White collar, blue collar workers, usually topping out at $100 000 a year income
Then you have the wealthy - Rich. Doctors, lawyers, judges, corporation owners etc. This is generally 10% of America.
Posted by: axis at May 18, 2006 09:09 AM
Axis is right!
I know at my country club we don't allow poor, middle-class, Irish or Canadians to drink at the bar. They are allowed to swim in the canals to retrieve the golf balls, sometimes we rich throw golf balls into the canal just to watch the Canadians get wet; it’s a riot!
I also happen to know, that Canadians, poor and middle class aren’t allowed in the courthouse unless they’re being charged with something. Hospitals take us rich first, and whatever is left goes to the middle-class. Canadians don't rate medical treatment; they'll just breed more Canadians! And you should see the Canadians jump off the sidewalk when we rich are walking our poor on leashes.
I’m so glad we re-instituted the class system here, the streets are much quieter without that Canadian riff-raff and poor people littering up our clean neighborhoods.
Posted by: Bane of Liberals' Existence at May 18, 2006 01:06 PM
Ash, NO ONE works for $1.50-2.00 an hour. Teenage babysitters get more than that. Lots more.
I hired laborers from a temp center. I paid nearly $20.00 an hour, and I asked the workers how much they made (in Spanish) and was told $12.00 an hour. The agency paid all the insurance and workmen's comp out of its cut, and found the jobs.
So Ash, I am doing some remodeling in Denver this summer. I'll pay you $15.00 an hour to work on my roof in the middle of the summer, and to drywall my ceilings. That's well above minimum wage. It's about what roofing companies and drywall companies pay, and they can't get Americans to do the work. A recent article by a Mexcian owner of a roofing company said he last had an American applicant a couple of years ago, hired him, and he lasted a day.
Ever done stoop labor, Ash? I have, hoeing beets. I will bet that you would not do that for $20.00 an hour. I can't get people at $10.00 an hour to clean stalls in my barn.
You guys just make stuff up. You may believe it, you may not, but a foundation in fact is clearly not an issue.
As for the Guard firing back, maybe they will and maybe they won't. Maybe this is an exercise to have the Mexican Army actually firing on American military so we can respond appropriately. What do you call it when the army of one country opens fire on the army of another? Isn't that kind of like....war?
Maybe we'll end up with lots of new beaches in the US, and a few new stars on the flag, after we defend ourselves against an armed military attack.
Posted by: Almiranta at May 18, 2006 08:02 PM
Lots of states have LOW minimum wages. Kansas for example is $2.65/hr. Oklahoma $2/hr for small firms
Many more states do not have a minimum wage. Immigants are working at this very moment for $2 an hour. Some even bid for jobs, the lowest gets it.
Posted by: axis at May 18, 2006 08:54 PM
alimeranta,
Looks like, Ash,or Axis either for that matter,does'nt keep up with the ever increasing inflation these days, hmmmm? how do we explain it? possibly bumming off of the government or a relative perhaps,No offense but still..........
Well,I'll tell you alimeranta,I would have to admit to one thing you sure have'nt gone behind the times,I would never clean stalls for less than ten dollars an hour and believe me I have spent a many, a Many a winter's day, cleanin stalls and puttin out hay, and in the dead summer heat hoeing corn and beets,and don't even mention hilling a football field of them durn potatoes.
Posted by: jeremiah at May 18, 2006 10:43 PM
alimeranta,
Looks like, Ash,or Axis either for that matter,does'nt keep up with the ever increasing inflation these days, hmmmm? how do we explain it? possibly bumming off of the government or a relative perhaps,No offense but still..........
Well,I'll tell you alimeranta,I would have to admit to one thing you sure have'nt gone behind the times,I would never clean stalls for less than ten dollars an hour and believe me I have spent a many, a Many a winter's day, cleanin stalls and puttin out hay, and in the dead summer heat hoeing corn and beets,and don't even mention hilling a football field of them durn potatoes.
Posted by: Jeremiah at May 18, 2006 10:51 PM
$10 an hour! Jeremiah you are unamerican. How is your Boss supposed to get filty rich as is the American way when he is being burdoned with your obscenely high rate of pay.
Posted by: axis at May 19, 2006 02:14 AM
axis Quote'
"How is your Boss supposed to get filty rich as is the American way when he is being burdoned with your obscenely high rate of pay."
Because he's a Big wig supervisor and Because he works for $28 bucks an hour along with his inheritance,You see what i mean,$$$$ BIG money because, Work does not come cheap these days, unless of course, you don't work? and get a free pass!!because,because,becUZZ.LOL.
Posted by: Jeremiah at May 19, 2006 10:28 AM
Canuck,
Where Federal and state law have different minimum wage rates, the higher standard applies.
There are select occupations to which there are lower than Federal minimum wages, but those are for such things as piece work, or round-the-clock live-in work.
The Oklahoma state minimum wage law does not contain current dollar minimums. Instead the state adopts the Federal minimum wage rate by reference.
It must be rough for you guys up in USA-Lite.
Posted by: Bane of Liberals' Existence at May 19, 2006 06:40 PM
Bane, thats fair if true, however if say the fed rate is $6/hour, what is the point in even passing a much lower state rate of say $4 an hour if the higher fed rate will apply instead anyways?
That don't make a lick o' sense to me.
Its quite nice here thanks, not rough at all. ('Cept them pesky taxes is too high) :)
Posted by: axis at May 20, 2006 12:08 PM
When the U.N. is at your door and you have no rights get back to me on this guy Bush. And I voted for him, wake up now or you will be just another silly sheep.
I think a lot of people are envisioning the National Guard being deployed to the border with full Iraq style camo and weapons, repeling those illegals.
But what they will actually be doing is the jobs of the Border patrol. Typing, watching monitors, visual patrols, filling out paper work.
They will have no weapons allowed at all and will almost be like rent a cops helping the existing border patrols.
Seems to me, a much better use of money is to actually spend the needed funds to hire 5-10000 more guards. GOP has shot that idea down again and again and once finally approved, they downgraded it and robbed funding from it again and again.
Illegals come here for work and a better way of life and Americans HIRE them. Crack down on the farm owners and Factory owners and Corporation hiring the illegals and you will improve the situation dramatically.
Thats not what this administration wants though, they want a slave class of people to work for below normal wages to serve their corporate campaign donators.
They will have no weapons allowed at all and will almost be like rent a cops helping the existing border patrols.
It's going to be interesting to see the outcome when something like this happens.
A blockbuster exposé in the magazine's March issue notes that over the past five years, there have been 120 documented incidents of Mexican military/police incursions, sometimes resulting in the arrest of Mexican army personnel on U.S. soil by Border Patrol agents.
The magazine cites incidents such as the one in March 2000 where soldiers in two Mexican army Humvees fired on Border Patrol agents in El Paso, Texas, and another in October, when 10 Mexican soldiers fired at a Border Patrol helicopter in California. (emphasis - mine)
Rep. Tom Tancredo, chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, said in a May 2002 press release that there were 23 incursions by Mexican authorities in 2001 alone.
If this is continuing to occur (and I wouldn't trust the MSM to report it if it were), I'm betting the NG won't be unarmed for long.
Thats not what this administration wants though, they want a slave class of people to work for below normal wages to serve their corporate campaign donators.
Which is true and galling. These are jobs Americans woudld do at a fair wage.
It was a good speach to bad he will never get tne bill out to sign
higher (minority) wages is implict in the observation that illegal hispanic immigration "oppress minorities who can't earn a decent wage".
yet those same higher wages would attract yet more illegal immigrants.
course this ignores the boyz on the block who evidently have no work ethic since these same "lower" wages attract illegal hispanic immigration.
one wonders if "no work ethic" is the result of gererations of (failed) new deal, social welfare dependency otherwise the lower rung jobs would be filled so there'd be no attraction for...illegal hispanic immigration.
funny how things work, aint it?
Every President since Truman who's had a second term has had terrible trouble, including with his base. It appears to be the nature of the beast. He's not running again in 2008 and can have no real coattails. And politics is often about "what have you done for me lately?" Plus the base that worked hard to re-elect him was fighting as much agin' the other guy as for him. So now that he's not up for election again they complain.
Take a look at that pattern and tell me it doesn't match pretty much every 2nd term President since Truman (and including Truman).
Frankly, whether you voted for Bush or not, at this point whining about the administration means a lot less than the upcoming congressional elections. Whether it's immigration or anything else, it's the House and the Senate you have to persuade.
I agree with Ash and Axis. Bush wants to uphold his image of the Compassionate Conservative-Compassionate because he allows illegals to come in and do jobs "Americans won't do", and Conservative because he's sending the National Guard to the border. In reality, he's rewards large corporate campaign donors, who an ample supply of cheap labor, and don't want to be hindered by having to pay benefits or a living wage. Bush wants a permanent ownership society, which also explains why existing laws prohibiting companies from hiring illegal workers were ony enforced three times in the last year.
If existing laws were enforced, sending the National Guard to the border would be unnecessary, as the jobs would simply dry up, and the illegal workers would stop risking their lives to come here. Since Republicans love free markets, supply and demand would be the rule of the day. Instead we have an oversupply-a labor force willing to work very hard for very little.
Axis,
Just can't drop the leftwing nastiness for even a full day, can you? Just how do you get through life being that mean and spiteful? You, too, Ash...
Dean,
The second term does seem to be accursed...and I think part of the problem is so many of the staffers wear themselves out in the first term...some day we'll have a President who will send his staff home at 5pm and give them weekends off; preventing that burnout and saving them up for emergencies and for the second term.
But it also does seem a bit obsessional in America today...both left and right are entirely fixated on what President Bush is doing...granted, he's massively important, but he's also not running for re-election...he should be a fixed point around which the left and right argue for 2006 and 2008 advantage...what has happened is that he has become THE issue...
Never would have thought that a moderately conservative GOP President would be the reason for so much heartache...I mean, look at some of these comments: he wants a "slave" class! For crying out loud...what are these people going to do on January 20th, 2009 and their whole worldview collapses because President Bush isn't in office?
Spook,
That is my dad's big concern...NG to the border and gets into a firefight with the Mexican Army...I hope to God that Fox understands how delicate this situation is and that he brings some reliable troops to the border...some who may, for a week or so, not take a bribe to help out the smugglers...
Very true Ash, Many Americans would be willing to do the jobs many of these immigrants are doing, but not for $1.50 or $2 a hour.
Sadly, these corporations won't pay fair wages when they can get cheaper labour instead because then they would only profit in the hundreds of millions instead of billions.
This is a case of capitalism gone awry folks, nothing more. NAFTA allowed these big companies into Mexico which squashed higher wages there, so they come here instead.
But its true, nail the corporations hiring these people and you will have solved a big piece of the problem.
----------------
Posted by Ash
"Which is true and galling. These are jobs Americans woudld do at a fair wage"
Mark, you are mistaking mean and nastiness for frank discussions. From our perspective, this is what is happening. Theres no venom here at all...
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but it looked like John was talking about immigration. I have no problem with the current system of immigration.
My problem is with the lawbreakers from Mexico, invading our land.
Mark,
Podhoretz can worry and whine all he wants about conservatives becoming "rigid" or "dogmatic". Truth is, some of us are not going to compromise our priniciples. As someone who is married to a LEGAL immigrant, if an amnesty bill goes thru, the GOP can forget about ever having my support. I've already quit donating fundage over the issue, my vote is all I've got left. NO amount of "democrats are worse" or "the need for conservative judges" will ever change the fact that THIS issue is a pillar of my and other's support for the GOP.
Karl Rove, are you reading this?
The Constitution Party is starting to look pretty good.
The best thing we can do with our Guest Worker program is to have all illegals register and have social security payments made from guest workers go to citizens as bonus social security $$$. It has long been said that SS won't be around twenty years from now....it could be.
I see nothing wrong with have guest worker contributions got to support citizens and social security.
The only thing I would ask is that the government not take this money with their drawers full of IOUs, but actually set it aside so that there will be money twenty years from now. ml
The reason many on the Left are fixated on Bush, is that his policies are polarizing. He campaigned in 2000 as a moderate, whose foreign policy was going to be humble (remember that one??) but he has pandered relentlessly to the far right wing of the party. Ths social conservatives get conservative Supreme Court appts, attempts to ban gay marriage, and attempts to pass an amendment banning flag burning(like that's even a problem). His corporate base gets tax cuts cheap, willing labor., and no-bid contracts in Katrina and Iraq. The middle -class and poor get the shaft as wages stagnate and energy costs skyrocket. Something for everyone!
Our socialist poster from the north gives himself away with this,
More "corporate campaign contributions" went to democrat Presidential candidates than Bush. Oh yeah, eh?
So being in favor of market economics and the free flow of capital, having a strong, job creating economy and tax generating corporate profits which get reinvested into the economy for further growth and/or distributed to shareholders isn't considered being a conservative. Wow, guess I was rooting for the wrong side in the Cold War all these years. Thanks for the heads up. Well, I guess there's always Cuba.
I must have hit the Kos website by mistake.
Mark, basically I am a happy go lucky person who values his time away from society by hiking and backpacking on a regular basis. I work from home doing what I enjoy. I can laugh at myself. I pick my battles. And the one battle that I must stick to is the class war that is currently being waged against middle to lower class Americans. I write this as I see your hero on television and a bevy of his haves and have mores as he extends the tax cuts for the have mosts.
I suppose this is a strategy based on the felonious theory of "trickle down" economics. It's baloney, pure and simple. Meanwhile the have mosts can continue to hire immigrants for $5 an hour. they can export jobs to India.
I guess I am angry. But I've always rebelled against unfairness and I'm too old now to change.
Bane of Liberals' Existence, I never mentioned campaign contributions, neither my comments nor this topic have anything to do with that at all.
Yes, both sides are guilty of accepting contributions from big business. Historically, however Republicans collects many times the big business bribes than Democrats do because most Republicans favor the rich and big business while many Democrats favor the middle class.
You see some o the same here, although there are more stringent ethics rules than in America
Ash,
Class war? Oh, for Pete's sake...there are no classes: that, in and of itself, is an invention of hate-filled leftwingers designed to make a convenient target of hatred and envy...
Why can't you just be happy with what you've got? And if you want to help the poor, why don't you just get yourself down there and use your own resources to do it?....
I'm doing everything I can, Marker. One thing I do is to call you on every angle of greed and avarice. Tax cuts for the billionaires for one. You announce your ignorance with the statement that there are no classes. Denial is simply the hypocracy of the hate filled right wingers. they've got it and don't want to share.
I'll continue to call you on this...
Ash,
There are no classes - a class structure to society implies that someone in one class cannot become a member of another class...have you looked, lately, to see the percentage of rich people who started out poor? What is really rich is that the majority of those who live off inherited wealth are liberal/left...and no one ever advocates taxing that rich, only the "rich" who are actually working for a living.
Envy is a terrible thing to carry 'round...you should drop it and start dealing with people as God intended: one by one based upon their merits.
You, too, are imperfect, you know?
At least this president "acts" when things start to go wrong,which is the very thing that I admire about him "he's got the guts" to take control,more so than most past presidents.
Well Mark you do not get to define classes. Social and economic classes are well defined in this and in all societies. I did not imply there isn't mobility (unless you are reading invisible ink). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you thought I meant caste, which, Mark is a completely different thing.
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge class divisions based on income, or education, or property ownership, networth, reputation is not being honest.
I envy no one Mark. I am doing exactly what I want, I just looked out my deck and saw a ray of sunlight filtering through the clouds and illuminating the Flat Irons, mmmmm. No I envy no one. (And my belt buckle is farther off the groung than you are tall)
"At least this president acts when things go wrong which is the very thing I admire about him"
I think at critical times he has been disconnected-ie with Katrina and the ports deal. Plus little has been done to create a long-term solution to the energy crisis.
The times he has acted, his policies have led us into disaster---for example unilateral invasion of Iraq-invasion was successful, but he didn't understand that he needed to provide security for the Iraqis, and now its a mess.
Mark, you are dancing rings around the semantics circle. Saying there are no classes in America shows your out of touch with things. Last time I checked, you couldn't be rich and poor at the same time. Can't be well off and filty rich at the same time either. Shoots down your litmas test for classes.
In most first world countries, you have the
Poor, which can range from homeless to near the poverty line. Usually minimum wave workers or less.
You have the middle class, which is mainstream America, with a moderate level of income. White collar, blue collar workers, usually topping out at $100 000 a year income
Then you have the wealthy - Rich. Doctors, lawyers, judges, corporation owners etc. This is generally 10% of America.
Axis is right!
I know at my country club we don't allow poor, middle-class, Irish or Canadians to drink at the bar. They are allowed to swim in the canals to retrieve the golf balls, sometimes we rich throw golf balls into the canal just to watch the Canadians get wet; it’s a riot!
I also happen to know, that Canadians, poor and middle class aren’t allowed in the courthouse unless they’re being charged with something. Hospitals take us rich first, and whatever is left goes to the middle-class. Canadians don't rate medical treatment; they'll just breed more Canadians! And you should see the Canadians jump off the sidewalk when we rich are walking our poor on leashes.
I’m so glad we re-instituted the class system here, the streets are much quieter without that Canadian riff-raff and poor people littering up our clean neighborhoods.
Ash, NO ONE works for $1.50-2.00 an hour. Teenage babysitters get more than that. Lots more.
I hired laborers from a temp center. I paid nearly $20.00 an hour, and I asked the workers how much they made (in Spanish) and was told $12.00 an hour. The agency paid all the insurance and workmen's comp out of its cut, and found the jobs.
So Ash, I am doing some remodeling in Denver this summer. I'll pay you $15.00 an hour to work on my roof in the middle of the summer, and to drywall my ceilings. That's well above minimum wage. It's about what roofing companies and drywall companies pay, and they can't get Americans to do the work. A recent article by a Mexcian owner of a roofing company said he last had an American applicant a couple of years ago, hired him, and he lasted a day.
Ever done stoop labor, Ash? I have, hoeing beets. I will bet that you would not do that for $20.00 an hour. I can't get people at $10.00 an hour to clean stalls in my barn.
You guys just make stuff up. You may believe it, you may not, but a foundation in fact is clearly not an issue.
As for the Guard firing back, maybe they will and maybe they won't. Maybe this is an exercise to have the Mexican Army actually firing on American military so we can respond appropriately. What do you call it when the army of one country opens fire on the army of another? Isn't that kind of like....war?
Maybe we'll end up with lots of new beaches in the US, and a few new stars on the flag, after we defend ourselves against an armed military attack.
Lots of states have LOW minimum wages. Kansas for example is $2.65/hr. Oklahoma $2/hr for small firms
Many more states do not have a minimum wage. Immigants are working at this very moment for $2 an hour. Some even bid for jobs, the lowest gets it.
alimeranta,
Looks like, Ash,or Axis either for that matter,does'nt keep up with the ever increasing inflation these days, hmmmm? how do we explain it? possibly bumming off of the government or a relative perhaps,No offense but still..........
Well,I'll tell you alimeranta,I would have to admit to one thing you sure have'nt gone behind the times,I would never clean stalls for less than ten dollars an hour and believe me I have spent a many, a Many a winter's day, cleanin stalls and puttin out hay, and in the dead summer heat hoeing corn and beets,and don't even mention hilling a football field of them durn potatoes.
alimeranta,
Looks like, Ash,or Axis either for that matter,does'nt keep up with the ever increasing inflation these days, hmmmm? how do we explain it? possibly bumming off of the government or a relative perhaps,No offense but still..........
Well,I'll tell you alimeranta,I would have to admit to one thing you sure have'nt gone behind the times,I would never clean stalls for less than ten dollars an hour and believe me I have spent a many, a Many a winter's day, cleanin stalls and puttin out hay, and in the dead summer heat hoeing corn and beets,and don't even mention hilling a football field of them durn potatoes.
$10 an hour! Jeremiah you are unamerican. How is your Boss supposed to get filty rich as is the American way when he is being burdoned with your obscenely high rate of pay.
axis Quote'
"How is your Boss supposed to get filty rich as is the American way when he is being burdoned with your obscenely high rate of pay."
Because he's a Big wig supervisor and Because he works for $28 bucks an hour along with his inheritance,You see what i mean,$$$$ BIG money because, Work does not come cheap these days, unless of course, you don't work? and get a free pass!!because,because,becUZZ.LOL.
Canuck,
Where Federal and state law have different minimum wage rates, the higher standard applies.
There are select occupations to which there are lower than Federal minimum wages, but those are for such things as piece work, or round-the-clock live-in work.
The Oklahoma state minimum wage law does not contain current dollar minimums. Instead the state adopts the Federal minimum wage rate by reference.
It must be rough for you guys up in USA-Lite.
Bane, thats fair if true, however if say the fed rate is $6/hour, what is the point in even passing a much lower state rate of say $4 an hour if the higher fed rate will apply instead anyways?
That don't make a lick o' sense to me.
Its quite nice here thanks, not rough at all. ('Cept them pesky taxes is too high) :)