That we know of so far Matt. Bush lied before saying they were only interested in those calling al qaeda ans those that al qaeda were calling.

Then we found out that they are instead snooping on all americans that have a phone with AT&T, Verizon and Bellsouth.

Do you honestly believe that what little we know about the NSA spying is all there is to know? They lied to Americans once, twice, they will not hesitate to do so again.

Why do you think they crippled the NSA spying investigation by denying them security clearances? If they were doing legal activities, nothing to hide, then they would have participated and allowed the investigation to proceed. Only if they were breaking the law and spying much more than is already know would they have blocked the investigations.

But here's a question for you.

We now know that the NSA has been spying on people for at least 5 years. In that time, they have apparently NOT caught one, single terrorist or else they would have announced it when this scandal came out as a testiment to how well the program was working.

So if they are not using it to catch terrorists, what are they using it for?

200 million americans being spied on for 5 years and not a single arrest due to the program?

Very likely there is a much more sinister purpose in this that using it to find terrorists.

Imagine for a second that what we "crazy lefties" are saying that this is a fascist regime in power. Slowly taking liberities, civil rights and due process away. Now fast forward a bit until just before all your "rights" finally see it too, when it affects your daily lives as well.

The first thing a new fascistic society will need to do is criminalize opposition politics and locate and weed out any dissidents to their rule.

What better way to do that than to have a record of every phone call every american has ever made or received. Then they cross reference it to those on their dissident watch list and round them all up with no charges or do process like they have done to over 3000 americans in prison in Cuba now and stick them in the new remodeled WWII internment camps that FEMA is busy fixing up as we speak.

Crazy talk. Could never happen in America. But thats what pre-Hitler Germans thought too, until it was too late.

"Those that choose not to learn from History are doomed to repeat its mistakes"

Quote from Matt:

"They make it sound like any citizen is being targeted in the program, when in fact, the calls targeted were between known terror suspects making or receiving calls into or out of the country."

Are all far left wing lunatics like axis this completely devoid of critical thinking skills? Obviously trying to explain the program to one who spews out the word "fascist" at the drop of a hat is worthless. As soon as one of these kooks uses the word "fascist" or "Nazi" they've lost the arguement.

How right you are axis. This administration never admits to anything until it is caught with its hand in the cookie jar. And then you can be sure there is more than cookies involved.

And to all you B4B apologists and whiners about the press: It is about time the press starts doing its job and acts as watchdogs. Where is Woodward and Bernstein when we need them?

Sorry CJ but using your standards how can anyone take you seriously when you start your post with: far left wing lunatics?

Heres a thought from a "left wing lunatic" :)

If I am wrong, then I am simply an alarmist over-reacting to a situation.

But, if I am right, then the entire country has a major problem. A problem that you hard right wingers won't see clearly until its far too late to prevent it.

That being said, I would propose that it would be a far wiser choice to temporarily put aside your partisan politics in order to at the very least vote in checks and balances and oversight that was intended by America's founding fathers, yet is NOT being done. A government run amuck with no accountibility is never good.

For now, thats all most Democrats want, checks and balances and investigations that Congress has a constitutional duty to perform when theres suspected wrong doing. If theres no wrong doing and everything is legal as Bush says, then you Republicans have absolutely nothing to fear from allowing constitutional checks and balances. If however there IS wrong doig and illegal acts taking place, then congress by the same token has a duty to act on it and put a stop to it any way they can.

Heres another thought, imagine for a second that it was a Democrat in the White house and a Democratically controlled congess that was rubber stamping their every move allowing it to do anything it wanted. If this was the case, you right wingers would have broke out the fire and pitchforks far sooner than allowing it to continue for 5 years. You know darn well, you would be furious and can deny it, but in the end it just makes you a hypocrite.

If congressional oversight troubles you, then you place little value on the Constitution and your own freedoms. Perhaps congress should send King George home to Texas, where he can erect 30 foot high fences with razor wire around the entire state, take over as Supreme Emperor and succeed from the rest of the US and all your imperialists can move there with him and you can have your own little fascist state all to your selves to do with as you please.

According to ABC news:
Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report:
A senior federal law enforcement official tells us the government is tracking the phone numbers we call in an effort to root out confidential sources.
"It's time for you to get some new cell phones, quick," the source told us in an in-person conversation.
We do not know how the government determined who we are calling, or whether our phone records were provided to the government as part of the recently-disclosed NSA collection of domestic phone calls.

So now there is an accusation that the CIA is using the phone database to spy on the press. What is next?

Next, you will have to start calling one another Comrade. This is AmeriKa remember.

Keep it up guys, this is a riot!!! I have'nt laughed this much in a while. As far as what conservatives would do if a democratic president was doing it, we've already had a democratic president do it. Clinton had the NSA doing alot more spying, apparently none of it for security reasons though.

I'm sure all you guys were upset when you found out Clinton did it.............right?

Let me answer that one for them, Axis.

Hello? We're in a war. We have no constitutional rights when we're in a war. If you speak out against the administration, it amounts to you being a terrorist yourself.

Mark and Matt should gallop around their neighborhoods on horseback screaming, "THE TERRORISTS ARE COMING!! THE TERRORISTS ARE COMING!!! THE TERRORISTS ARE COMING!!! Maybe then people will start believing your drivle.

Posters like "axis" are prime examples of why liberals can never again be allowed to be in charge of our national security.

"Bush lied before saying they were only interested in those calling al qaeda ans (sic) those that al qaeda were calling.

Then we found out that they are instead snooping on all americans that have a phone with AT&T, Verizon and Bellsouth."

Obviously 'axis" has trouble understanding that we are talking about two separate programs. One, the NSA communications intercept program, is focused on intercepting communications between terrorists overseas and their symphasizers and supporters in the US. That program has been found to be Constitutional by at least five Federal Courts. It has been in existance for decades and has been used by four previous Presidents. But the outcry only comes out when President Bush is using the program to find out what the terrorists are planning in order to prevent another 9/11.

The other program, where the NSA is using telephone records to develop patterns and trails where terrorists, and their supporters, are calling, is a data-mining operation. This program has been ongoing since 1994, when President Clinton signed the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act. They are not "snooping" on Americans, they are data-mining the phone records. Only now, with a Republican in the White house, is it an outrage.

The only connection between the two, besides being a NSA operation, is when the data-mining reveals the phone numbers of who know terrorists are calling. Then the communications intercept operation can attempt to determine if there are terrorists talking about future terrorist events.

"We now know that the NSA has been spying on people for at least 5 years. In that time, they have apparently NOT caught one, single terrorist or else they would have announced it when this scandal came out as a testiment to how well the program was working."

Duh, "axis" where have you been? President Bush, General Hayden, Attorney General Gonzalez, and other have publically talked about the hundreds of plans that have been disrupted. I know its probably beyond your scope of understanding to comprehend that if we were to blab about the successes, the terrorists would use that information to avoid future detection. Like I said, you cannot ever again be allowed control of our national security.

"Next, you will have to start calling one another Comrade. This is AmeriKa remember."

Posted by: axis at May 15, 2006 12:23 PM

That's priceless, "axis". Mixing "Comrade", a commonly known term from Communism, the "religion" of the left, and "AmeriKa", an obvious referral to Nazism, which is equated with the Far Right.

They caught that dude that was going to use a blow torch to sever the cables holding up the Brooklyn Bridge...

"Axis",

You want checks and balances to keep the President on a close leash. OK, I can understand that. But step back from your insane hatred for the President for a minute and examine the checks and balances already in place:

Legislative Review: Selected members of Congress had been briefed on the NSA communications intercept program at least 12 times prior to the illegal disclosure of the program. If they were that upset about the program, which had been going on for decades, under Democrat and Republican Presidents, why didn't they speak up then, or call for hearings?

Judicial Review: At least five separate federal courts have ruled that the President is within his Constitutional powers to authorized warrantless wiretaps to gather foreign intelligence.

In addition to the warrantless intercepts, are you aware that the Admininstration has requested and received over 3,500 warrants from the FISA court in the past two years alone? If they were so evil, why did they even bother to get the warrants?

I'll answer for you, because its beyond your comprehension to understand what's going on. You see, when the NSA is intercepting communications between a terrorist overseas and their supporter in the US, they frequently do not know who the terrorists are calling. That is because the supporter in the US is frequently using a "throw-away" cell-phone that is un-tracable. They are attempting to discover and prevent terrorists attacks. The information they gather cannot be used in criminal prosecution against the terrorists or their supporters.

If, during their intercept operation, they are able to determine the name, address, etc, of the terrorist supporter in the US, they can then request the warrant. Which they have done, thousands of time since 2001. Then they can use the evidence gathered under the warrant to prosecute the terrorist supporter.

This is not a case of random "domestic" spying. In fact, there is no "domestic" aspect of the program. One part to the communication is always overseas. Further, they are only intercepting communications of known terrorists.

"Duh, "axis" where have you been? President Bush, General Hayden, Attorney General Gonzalez, and other have publically talked about the hundreds of plans that have been disrupted."

Speaking of that why didn't we hear more about the dastardly plan to twin tower Los Angeles. Seems like it disappeared pretty quickly after they were pressed for details. But then that would have implied they were fibbing. And who would believe that about the Bush Cabal of Corruption?

A-10, you keep referencing the same WRONG information regarding the NSA. Several other posters have corrected you, but you still try to mislead us. You know D*mn well that selected members of Congress is not the same as all members of Congress. The federal cases you refer to did not involve the current program, and the Clinton reference had nothing to do with FISA restricted surveillance.

You continue to make a fool of yourself.

See, the problem with you right-wingers is that you are so closed minded. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that they are using the NSA programs to fight terrorism. Does anyone in here disagree with that, even lefties??? I doubt it.

The problem is WHAT ELSE are they using for?
What else COULD THEY be using it for?
Why do they consistantly kill investigations to determine the answers to the above 2 questions?
Why do only 8 out of 535 congresspeople know any details of the programs?
Why do some of these "elite 8" still question the programs' legality?

Next problem, Bush assumes the terrorists are stupid. Does he honestly think that they think the US isn't monitoring them or at least trying? Well, I read an interesting article yesterday. If I'm not mistaken it was in the Washington Post. It turns out the technology the NSA is currently using is no better than it was before 9/11. If terrorists are using throw-away phones to communicate, it still takes the NSA 2 days to take action. As it happened, even back then they intercepted communications to the terrorists who boarded planes on 9/11, which occurred on 9/10...the exact words of which were, "Tomorrow is zero hour", it took them till 9/12 to understand what they meant.

The moral of the story is this...even with all the crap the NSA is doing, they still probably won't stop the next attack. The more data they get, the harder it is to crunch it. Bush keeps on giving them more and all it is doing is bogging down the system with worthless information on millions of people when there are only a few that are the problem. They have a term for this...it's called a needle in a haystack.

I apologize, it was Newsweek. Here is the link:

Hold the Phone - Big Brother knows whom you call. Is that legal, and will it help catch the bad guys?

"A-10, you keep referencing the same WRONG information regarding the NSA. Several other posters have corrected you, but you still try to mislead us. You know D*mn well that selected members of Congress is not the same as all members of Congress. The federal cases you refer to did not involve the current program, and the Clinton reference had nothing to do with FISA restricted surveillance.

You continue to make a fool of yourself."

Posted by: Barneyg2000 at May 15, 2006 04:03 PM

Could you point to all those posters who have proven me wrong, as I don't recall anyone who has, least of all you.

Who's the fool?

Did you know that there are oversight committees within Congress that are briefed on details of intelligence programs? They are NEVER briefed to all members of Congress because members of Congress cannot be trusted to keep their mouths shut on National Security issues. That's why Patrick "leaky" Leahy was removed from the Senate Intelligence Committee. All members of Congress should not have been briefed, so what's your point.

The various federal cases have ruled that the President has Constitutional authority to order the gathering of foreign intelligence. As the Constitution takes precedence over a law, the President's Constitutional authority makes the NSA communications intercepts legal. What part of that don't you understand.

As for President Clinton, the point was that he authorized the warrantless surveillance of US citizens. So what if it didn't have to do with FISA. Where is your outrage over President Clinton authorizing the spying on Americans?

Captain Ron,

I know you and intelligence are mutually exclusive, but I'll try to educate you on how the program works.

In simple terms (so you can understand) this is how the NSA communications intercept program works. One of the good guys (that's a member of the US Armed Forces, Law Enforcement Community, or Intelligence Community) captures or kills one of the bad men (that's the terrorists or their supporters). When they search the bad men, they find cell phones, telephone logs, computers, PDAs, etc. The good guys (which we are rooting for, at least us conservatives are. I'm not so sure about the liberals.) look in these captured materials and discover telephone numbers and email addresses for people around the world, and some in the US. The good guys turn over the information to the NSA, who is the government agency responsible for signals intelligence. We try to keep this secret so other terrorists do not know we have that information. But sometimes people who care only about undermining the President reveal this information to the press. That hurts our efforts to protect us against further attacks.

Now, at this time, the good guys at the NSA do not know who the phone numbers and email addresses found on the cell phones, telephone number, computers, etc., belong to. You see, the terrorists are smart. They buy "throw-away" pre-paid cell phones that don't require identification for purchase, so we don't know who they are. We can't get a warrant for someone if we don't know who they are and where they live. So the good guys at the NSA program their computers to intercept all phone calls to and from the phone numbers and email addresses found on the terrorists.

The focus of the intercept is twofold: Attempt to discover the identity of the individual the terrorists are calling or receiving calls from so a warrant can be issued to wiretap all of his/her communications (sometimes these people have a number of telephones and multiple email addresses). In the last two years alone, there have been over 3,500 FISA warrants issued. Second, they attempt to uncover terrorist plans so they can stop terrorist attacks, as they did with the planned attack against the Brooklyn Bridge.

So you see, with the NSA intercept program, they are not listening in on millions of people's conversations. They are only listening in on communications to and from phones and email addresses with a link to a terrorist. The people who are the problem. Do you understand now?

A-10 - Try reading my post before attempting to undermine it. I have always understood that. I'm not even remotely discussing the intercept program. I am talking about phone records of millions of people. I'm saying it's pointless. The NSA can't crunch the data fast enough. They couldn't before 9/11 and they can't now. Pay attention.

"I'm pretty sure everyone knows that they are using the NSA programs to fight terrorism. Does anyone in here disagree with that, even lefties??? I doubt it." - Captain Ron

see that?, it was at the very beginning, are you blind??????

You just wasted your time typing out crap I've already read 50 times. You got a smart-ass answer for the rest of my questions? No, because nobody does.

PS - Did you read about the Brooklyn bridge "attack" before you wrote about it??? Some guy was going to take it out with a blow torch. Have you ever seen the Brooklyn bridge? I have. It's going to take more than a blow torch I can guarantee that.

Some of the people in here have intelligent things to say and question policies and procedures that don't make logical sense. You, A-10, are not one of them.

A-10, there is a HUGE difference between briefing an oversight committee, which is basically simply telling them that there is an NSA surveillence program underway

and proper oversight, which allows them to INVESTIGATE what exactly is happening to ensure that it is legal and constitutional.

Proper oversight is NOT happening. That is the whole point. Investigations are definately NOT happening. That is the point.

Congress has a constitutional duty to provide proper oversight into government and government programs. That applies no matter if its Democrats or Republicans in the White House.

Republican congress DID provide lots off oversight during the Clinton years, holding an investigation if he was seen picking his nose. But then along comes Bush and suddenly, oversight no longer required.

The Republicans are NOT DOING THEIR JOBS. Thats why people are upset. They are being paid hundreds of thousands each and NOT DOING THEIR JOBS. So what does an employer do when he finds employees being paid but not doing their jobs? He fires them. The people are their employers and so the people will fire them if they don't start doing their jobs pretty darn quick.

Thats the only way for the GOP to raise their poll numbers, to START DOING THEIR JOBS. But they won't because they are afraid that what the President is doing is not legal and that will make them look bad. They are their own worst enemy and it will cost them dearly in the November elections

Yep, hundreds of plans have been disrupted, yet, not on single, solitary person has been arrested on any of those hundreds of plans that I have seen. If they had, they would have led them out in shackles to let the media see how well the program is working. Where are all the thousands of people responsible for these hundreds of plans?

Maybe these plans come from the same place as those "voices" that the President hears all the time. He believes its God speaking. I think its a lack of Schitzo meds speaking personally.

------------------------

Posted by Ash

"Duh, "axis" where have you been? President Bush, General Hayden, Attorney General Gonzalez, and other have publically talked about the hundreds of plans that have been disrupted."

Speaking of that why didn't we hear more about the dastardly plan to twin tower Los Angeles. Seems like it disappeared pretty quickly after they were pressed for details. But then that would have implied they were fibbing. And who would believe that about the Bush Cabal of Corruption?"

Captain Ron,

I guess it won't do any good to discuss the efforts of the Bush Administration to fight terrorism with you because you are blinded by your irrational hatred of President Bush.

In my eyes, the government should be doing everything within their legal limits to fight terrorism. The NSA is intercepting terrorist communications. The federal courts have ruled that the program is Constitutional. That's good enough in my book. We don't need members of Congress grandstanding to make political points by trying to undermine the President.

The NSA is also data-mining telephone records to detect terrorist networks and connections. The Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act of 1994 and a Supreme Court ruling have authorized the program. That is also good enough for me. Again, we don't need a bunch of blabber-mouths in Congress disclosing particulars about the program, and others, because they can't keep their big mouths shut. I have never said that the data-mining efforts are designed to immediately detect a terrorist plot. The facts are that the NSA is uniquely capable, and is the government agency tasked with signals intelligence, which includes telephone signals, for conducting the data-mining of telephone records. I'm pretty certain that once they detect something suspicious, they are turning over the information to the FBI. If they, and other intelligence agencies weren't doing this, and other programs to protect us from the next terrorist attack, I would say that they weren't doing their job.

My underlying point in all of my previous posts is that these programs have been used in the past by both Democrat and Republican Presidents, and the left didn't say a word. Now we are at war with Islamofascist terrorists and you are screaming that the President is violating your privacy rights. Can you point to one single instance where the efforts of the NSA to detect terrorist activity has violated an American citizen's privacy rights? I won't hold by breath waiting for an answer.

I'll say it again, all of the protests and outrage from the left is politically motivated. John Kerry critized the program, then stated that it should continue. can you say hypocracy? The left's only agenda when it comes to the activities of the intelligence community is to attack the President, so that they can regain seats in the House and Senate this fall, and hopefully the White House in 2008.

Finally, you still scream for oversight. But what you really want is investigations to damage the Bush Presidency. Investigations into what? A Constitutionally authorized foreign intelligence gathering program? A program that there has not been one incident where an American citizen's privacy rights have been violated in years (except, of course when President Clinton spied on American citizens for economic reasons)? A Congressionally authorized telephone data-mining operation based on a law passed and signed into law by Democrats?

"there is a HUGE difference between briefing an oversight committee, which is basically simply telling them that there is an NSA surveillence program underway"

Posted by: axis at May 16, 2006 01:41 AM

So you have been in the room when the oversight committees were briefed? If not, you have absolutely no credibility in posting what they are told and what they aren't told.

You also lament that there hasn't been one single arrest of a terrorist based on the efforts of the NSA program. And exactly how would you know this? Do you have a secret line to every FBI and US Attorney's office? I did a quick Google search and discovered links to terrorists being arrested in Buffalo, Oregon, Florida, and elsewhere. So I guess you're wrong again. There have been arrests that have been publicized, as there have also been arrests that have not been publicized.

No, I have listened to Senators copmment on oversight committees describe what there were told and it was not very much and they were only briefed on a fraction of the whole program.

You realize, of course, that were talking about a highly classified program, so they are not at liberty to discuss what they were briefed on.

Additionally, you must factor in partisan politics when they are making statements. Are they biased in their statements? Are they supportive of the Global War on Terror, or are they opponents of our efforts to fight terror?

Finally, it seems that the big three phone companies are all denying that they released telephone data to the NSA. The Bush Administration has not commented on the existance or non-existance of the program. So it is entirely possible that this was either a "red-herring" put out by someone in the administration to keep the terrorists on their toes, or a fabrication by an anonymous source or by USAToday. But typical of the left to jump all over the story and make it into a national scandle when the facts are not yet on the table.