Gotta love Dr Evil:

"WASHINGTON, May 12 — In the weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, Vice President Dick Cheney and his top legal adviser argued that the National Security Agency should intercept purely domestic telephone calls and e-mail messages without warrants in the hunt for terrorists, according to two senior intelligence officials."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/washington/14nsa.html?hp&ex=1147579200&en=9a442ce4901ab0c7&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Maf,

So, you are now going to call for an Independent Counsel to look into that story, right? I mean, what the NY Times has is two un-named intelligence officials (who, for all we know, are the janitorial staff), who have now leaked highly classified info to the press in an attempt to defame and destroy a public official charged with defending the United States.

So much for you hypocrisy...now, on to the meat of the story:

What you've got is two people who don't have the courage to have themselves named...they are levelling a very, very serious charge against the Vice President of the United States and they apparantly don't think of reporting it to the authorities in public, but sneak around to a journalist and tell tales...

I doubt highly that the coloration of the story is correct - just another bit of MSM BS designed to cast aspersions upon Cheney.

It kinda sucks when the phrasing puts your point of view at a disadvantage, hey Mark?

The first rebuttal that comes to mind is the rights use of the phrase "tax relief". This implies that taxes are a burden. When the fact of the matter is that taxes are the price we pay to live in an orderly society.

Also, the media doesn't need to cast aspersions on Cheney. All he needs is the rope to hang himself.
Wouldn't he kill (figuratively, of course) for W.'s 29% approval rating?

So Mark? Domestic spying is alright as long as George W. Bush is doing it.? Right? That is what I heard in this post.
Are you a complete Bush zombie?
You are not a Conservative if you are ok with the government spying on you.
I have lost faith in you Mark, I think you would agree with anything Bush did. Thats neither patriotic or pro-American.
Its foolish and you dont deserve the rights that so many people have died to protect.
We have no idea what the NSA is doing with our private information, there is no oversight. This is a Constitutional attack which I consider much worse than any 9/11 attack.

Ash,

Taxes are the price we pay for an orderly society, but they can also become a burden...and thus "tax relief" is a legitimate way to describe them...but I'm not even talking about how you and I might discuss them in the partisan back and forth, but how the MSM reports the news. By reporting it as "domestic spying", the MSM is taking the anti-Bush position in the debate...they are no longer being a news source, but a mere arm of the Democratic National Committee.

Lomsta,

That is a rather strong accusation to make against a man who's grandfathers, father and uncle served this nation in battle against tyranny...and against a man who, himself, spent four years defending this nation in the peacetime Navy.

Outside of that, however, I am strictly and adamantly opposed to the government spying on the citizenry in this nation and just as soon as you find a program which even remotely does such a thing, I'll join you in demanding that it be stopped and those who carried it out sent to jail...but what the NSA is doing is a signals intelligence program to find out what the enemy is up to. Given the nature of our war, some of this signals intelligence MUST go on inside the borders of the United States.

But it isn't spying...not in the least.

Perhaps when Russell Tice, testifies before the Senate Armed Services Commettee, this week he will tell us all what Lt. Gen James Clapper is training his satellites on in the USA. Or Why Cheney, was "demanding" a massive "domestic spying" plan. Or why Gen. Hayden, did not know that the 4th Ammendment to the Constitution, requires probable cause to get a warrat. The only hero so far in this illegal mess is Joseph P. Nacchio,ex-CEO of Qwest. Peace

maf53,

Why didn't you finish quoting other pertinent parts of the article while you were at it?

The NYT's article also says: "...N.S.A. lawyers, trained in the agency's strict rules against domestic spying and reluctant to approve any warrantless eavesdropping, insisted that it should be limited to communications into and out of the country ... The N.S.A.'s position ultimately prevailed."

And your point is...

NSA REFUSED TO CONDUCT any illegal domestic surveillance... even if asked to do so by the Vice President of the United States.

It looks like we had plenty of good legal advice on what was or wasn't legal.

It looks like NSA opted to do what their lawyers said was correct and legal.

It makes me feel even more confident that NSA has acted within the law.

It shows that Gen Hayden will stand up to anyone, even the Vice President of the United States, to make sure his agency conducts its surveillance operations within the law.

It confirms that Gen Hayden should be confirmed to head the CIA!

It is also another example that it's past the time we start putting people who leak or release unauthorized classified information in prison for a long, long time!

Unauthorized release of classified information is traitorous, illegal, not covered by whistle blower laws, and not a right under the first amendment!

I want to see some articles covering the arrest and imprisonment of these people!

Ash,

Where does it say that Vice President Cheney did anything illegal? He argued his point. He and NSA heard both sides. The lawyers got their say and gave advise. NSA complied with and followed the law.

The system worked... even though you believe that Republicans should be jailed for their speech (you know, that first amendment thing) rather than their actions and they are guilty of any charges from the left until proven innocent by a liberal judge!

It's the seriousness of the charges from the liberal left that matters... not whether someone is innocent of those charges!

Lomsta,

Spying is yours and the left's term. Surveillance is another and more accurate.

RE: "Are you a complete Bush zombie?"

Are you a liberal left zombie and prisoner of their lies, rhetoric, and propaganda? You have no idea of what the real facts are but everyone from President Bush down to Mark is guilty of something illegal... right? I'll bet you would be among the first to blame President Bush if he weren't doing all he could to protect you from a terrorist attack!

AAR

AAR,

Well, strickly speak, I was a bit of a zombie last night...had the world's worst headache...but that might have merely been Rove downloading new talking points into my brain implant...

Mark you miss the point. (Again) By painting taxes as a burden, you are painting taxes in an anti Democratic stance. Or pro republican stance.

Monitoring who I call is spying so it is legitimate to call it that.

Ash,
Are you calling people in the middle east? And are they either known terrorists, or do you frequently talk about suspicious activities such as blowing people up? If not, then no the NSA isnt monitoring you.
MSM wants people to believe they are monitoring EVERYBODY but they arnt. Not at all. They have guidelines. They have intel oversight. They have people trained to know "this guy is only talking to a friend, no need to listen to him".
MSM is lieing to you.

There is nothing illegal about the president wanting to do something, and being told he cant. And if for some reason Hayden did want to ok listening in on Americans, it is in his power to do so. Even though he didnt. There are two people in this nation with the power to go around warrants. The Director of NSA (DIRNSA) or (somebody else I forgot who though. He is above DIRNSA though and not the pres)

Lomsta,

So you're saying its OK if the "spying" is being conducted by a Democrat President? After all, President Clinton is the one who signed the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act of 1994, which authorizes the collection of the telephone data. The program, and others such as "Echelon" were used extensively by the Clinton administration. They actually even performed warrantless wiretaps against US citizens on US soil who were not talking to terrorists (Aldrich Ames). Where is your outrage about the "abuses" by the Clinton Administration?

Mark, what's most ironic is, that actual domestic spying went on during the clinton administration. Clinton went into citizens houses and planted bugs without a warrant, bugged foreignors within the USA for the sole purpose of getting economic information. What clinton did was so far past anything even contemplated by President Bush, and we weren't even in a state of war then!!! Well, al queda had declared war on us, but clinton did not acknowledge it, even though we were attacked over and over during his term. Its just like the gas price debate. The dems won't let us drill anywhere, build new refinaries or new nuclear plants, but even though President Bush favors these things, its somehow Bush's fault for high gas prices. The libs and lib media has this weird alternative universe that is just...well..weird.

AAR

Cheney may be the most hated vice president ever. And that includes Spiro Agnew. For the sake of argument lets say he hasn't done anything illegal. But his approval rating was still 19% at one time. I guess that's what I meant by letting him hang himself.

Calvin,

I don't think the NSA is listening in on all conversations. But I think it's probable that he has a list of the calls I made and to whom. I don't think thats right.

Ash your only half right again as always. Your numbers in and out of your house are listed. BUT there are no names attached to either incoming or outgoing listee numbers. There is NO conversations being heard. They are data mining the same of the people who send you that oil change coupon in the mail.

By the way, the ability to collect these numbers has been around since congress told the phone companies to make this happen in 1994 with a communication bill passed then. Clinton DID spy domesticaly on us in 1999 with his Carnivore and ECHELON programs. At the time, the New York Times said how wonderful it all was. My how times change with president changes.No double standard there.

Ash,

I know it will come as a surprise to you, but I think Vice President Cheney is one of our best vice presidents -- at least the best I can recall.

I sure wish he would have run for president. I would have voted for a Cheny-Rumsfeld ticket at the drop of that proverbial hat!

AAR

AAR

I am going to assume you are being serious when you state Cheney is one of your best vice-presidents and that you would have voted for a Cheney-Runsfeld ticket.

There are still some Americans left, I'm sure, who would agree with you, and that is just so very, very sad.

Isn't interesting how much the left and the media went bonkers about "outing" Valerie Plame...you know, the super agent of the world that was ready to save the planet.

Yet the same media and the left have no problem telling our enemies what our secret tactics are to stop them from committing terrorist acts. Apparently helping the terrorists with our secrets is ok now.

Amazing.

wn:

If you mean that the NSA has kept a log of personal phone calls of millions of Americans, well I suspect the "enemy" might have figured out that the government is eavesdropping on phone calls. If they weren't smart enough to figure that out, then I'd have to say we don't have anything to worry about.

Plame meanwhile was trying to find out about Irans nuclear capabilities. Now that seems like useful information to me.

Ash,

Geesh, get a grip - you guys are acting as if Plame would have solved the whole Iranian mess...as for me, I doubt the ability of a lady who couldn't even figure out that Saddam was attempting to obtain uranium in Africa...if she couldn't figure that out, then the last place we need here is working on Iran.

Ohio:

"There is NO conversations being heard."

I'm confused. I thought they WERE listening in on conversations if calls were from people of a sucspicious nature and they were calling a middle eastern country. Am I wrong about this?

"They are data mining the same of the people who send you that oil change coupon in the mail."

Well why don't they save a little money and just ask the people who send me oil change coupons? Aren't they being silly and redundant.

Let me get this straight: There are full time government employees out there collecting phone calls from a number with no name, to a number with no name. Just like Valvoline Quick Change.

How then is this helping us in your war on terror?

Warrior,

I noticed that, too...but as our friend Ash quickly pointed out, Saint Valerie was the only thing stopping Iran from getting nukes, so that is much more important a betrayal of national security than, say, tipping off the enemy on our signals intelligence program.

Mark, I am just pointing out the stupidity of a government that outs a woman trying to get valuable information at the same time they are trolling phone numbers (with no names, per Ohio).

I'm not sure either of us are in a position to judge her abilities. Someone must have thought she had some or they wouldn't have hired her? No?

Surely you see the nonsense about providing our enemies with valuable information, e.g., the government is monitoring phone calls. Gee who'da thunk it? That's just a terrible argument.

Ash,

Well, giving that firing a government employee is extraordinarily difficult, then she could have been kept on as the lesser of two evils...

Be that as it may - she wasn't outed: It was only pointed out to the media that her husband was telling some rather outrageous lies...her name was public record before this was done.

Warriornation,

Funny you should mention that the left is helping the terrorists since Reagan funded terrorist groups such as the mujahideen in Afganistan, John Saimbi's rebel forces in Angola, and the ever imfamous Contras in Nicaragua, which led to the Iran-Contra Affair.

What say you to that?

Mark,

The point of the matter is that no one knows the full scope of the NSA spying. This is because congression oversight in non-existant.

They COULD be spying and listening in and recording all domestic calls. Bush without question LIED when he said that "Anytime you hear the united states government talk about wiretaps, it requires a court order"

Later the public found out that he lied and he was conducting wiretaps WITHOUT a court order.

Mark, are you denying that he lied in '04 when he said that? In your eyes, Bush has always been completely honest with the american people, is that your view?

Then he went on to explain that only domestic-international calls to terrorist were being monitored.

That so far as we know is a mis-truth because he is collecting phone records from every american he can, domestic and international, again, without a warrant.

Hes lied and apoken mistruths about this from the word go. Chances are pretty darn good that the spying is a lot more involved than anyone realizes.

For the people here that brought up that Clinton was spying as well, all I can say if true, then he should have been also held accountable if it was illegal. All I can say thought is that the Republican controlled congress thru both his terms provided rigid oversight so why is it that this was never addressed and the best the Republicans could do is impeach him for lying about his extra-maritial affair. Surely if they could have nailed him for such illegal spying, they surely would have.

Having an administration with no oversight on anything is NOT healthy for any form of democracy. Even if perverted, oversight is always better than none, because no oversight allows unchecked abuse.

Teenage

What led to the Iranian situation to begin with...please go do your homework and read about 1979, the Shah of Iran and the youth takeover rebellion...then read about Jimmy Carter's involvement.

Get back to me.

Secondly, Nicaragua was on the verge of Communism when Reagan took office, when he left they were a Democratic nation.

Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.

Ash

The NSA is collecting AGGREGRATE data. Do you know what that means?

If you have a TIVO go read their service agreement, they are doing the same to you on your viewing habits.

It means they take you, your neighbor and everyone else with a TIVO and say X% are watching this, pressing this button and using their device in this way. It doesn't mean they know what ASH specifically is doing. It's AGGREGATE data.

Same for the phone patterns...aggregate.

Finally...your evaluation of Valerie Plame and her roll is amazing. If she was so good and so integral, why did her husband out her 5 times before Novak's piece even come out? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Warriornation,

I was speaking of hypocrisy. You claim that we are helping the terrorists when Reagan did the exact same thing because of is paranoia of Communism.

Teenaged,

Given that you are very young, you are excused for mindlessly swallowing what some liberal told you about Reagan and the battle against communism...

Teenage

I really don't think you want to get into a hypocrisy argument when it comes to the left and Democrats specifically.

Verizon sued for $50 billion over wiretap program

I believe that the people are suing in a demostic court. I believe it was phone records from demostic companies, on US citizens. Sure, this may also be terrorist surveillance, but that's not news worthy. The reason that this story is news worthy is because they are listening to the phone calls of US citizens, and they are also getting the records of all calls made by most US citizens, in a way that any reasonable and open minded person would say is illegal. It's not news worthy for the government to go after the enemy.... that's what they should do. It is news worthy when the government breaks the law; it's also news worthy when the government spies on it's citizens. Your inability, or refusal, to note that distention, is ridiculous and harmful. If you understand the values of the United States of America... freedom, liberty, etc... and if you knew some history, you would be very worried by the actions of the Bush administration... that is unless you are a paid pawn for them, and you are just coping talking points, which would make you an even worst person.

Ultimately, when I think of liberalism in general, I think of a very short midget wearing very tall platform shoes that is looking down at the people below him and sneering at them while smoking a giant cigar. And then the midget taps the ashes onto the peoples' faces and then tells them not to smoke.

That's the only thing I can think of, because when liberals argue, they almost always come into the conflict with the facts already decided, not willing to accept anything that counters their argument. This shows how they think they are "above" other people and their arguments. And hypocritically criticize their enemies for doing the same thing they've relished in doing...hence the cigar smoking. Liberalism wears platform shoes and is actually very small, however, because they have to lie to themselves to give themselves importance and value. They try to act better than everyone else, but ironically, they are the lowest of the low.

And I'm certain that liberals, when looking down on their misguided, conservative brethren through their cherry-tinted specs, can only see them as raving animals, mindless and living only for the thrill of the fight. Ah, the liberal then either tries to "teach" the "savage beasts" his "greater knowledge," or walks away from the crowd and dismisses them completely. The great tragedy is that the liberal has no idea of his ultimate sin -- that he, himself, has turned the people into the beasts against him, and only when he isn't looking do the people revert to their civilized state while the liberal tromps around in the mud, being frustrated at the "barbarians."

"It doesn't mean they know what ASH specifically is doing. It's AGGREGATE data."

Well you may believe that....but if you have been following things, this group doesn't admit anything until they are caught. Then the begin spinning. Nothing they do would suprise me at this point.

What is a "demostic" court?

Ash. you simply have to TRY to keep up. First, quit fretting about what MIGHT be going on. Because this all MIGHT be a plot hatched on a flying saucer to divert us while aliens plant tiny mind-worms in our brains. This mindless paranoia about what MIGHT be going on is what feeds you sillies. And it may be contributing to your utter failure to understand what IS going on.

Some calls are monitored---that is, listened to. Yes. This does happen. International calls from known terrorists abroad to known terrorists here may be monitored---that is, listened to by a person, or listened to by a computer looking for key words.

The data mining is a collection of aggregate, abstract, data. IT IS DIFFERENT. IT IS A DIFFERENT PLAN. It is only about numbers. No conversations are monitored. As I have said before, if you ever watch the TV show "numbers" you will see some pretty interesting examples of how mathematical formulas are being used for things that we math-impaired people could never imagine---traffic patterns, water flow patterns, etc. Inputting vast amounts of raw data, such as basic info on phone calls---duration, etc.---can be used, hopefully, to establish call patterns. General call patterns. Not how often Ash calls for pizza, but very general call patterns, involving millions and millions of calls. Here's an example: Let's say the data show that calls tend to last at least three minutes. A cluster of calls lasting twenty seconds, among suspect numbers, could be a valuable pattern, indicating coordination of last-minute plans for an attack. Or a pattern might emerge of A calling B, then B immediately calling C, then C immediately calling D, and so on---if we had a proven pattern and something like this did not fit it, it could be an indication of a need for futher investigation. It could be a phone tree for soccer moms setting up a picnic, or it could be a plot pattern.

This kind of research can provide a tool for future analysis. Like any tool, the POSSIBILITY for misuse exists. The reason you are so paranoid about this is the crap you are routinely fed by your keepers, about the alleged immorality and dishonesty of the entire Bush administration. So your paranoia is based on lies, cold-blooded calculated lies told to you by those you trust, with the specific purpose of turning you into the kinds of idiots who go online to spout those cockamamie theories.

So, what does Ranty tell you about the many devious ways these numbers could be used? Cause I'm sure her analysis is really really smart. Yeah, right.

As I posted the above, it occurred to me that Ash is suffering from the dreaded Joe Wilson Syndrome---the belief that HE is so important that the entire government is dedicated to negating his immense influence on the universe, in the most malignant way possible.