Mark

Do you or do you not have women in the military?
Are there not women right now serving in Iraq?
Seems to me that is a pretty dangerous place to be.

Mark,

What in the world are you trying to hit at here? Nowhere in that article does it say that the woman was put in that job against her will. Did it ever occur to you that she wanted that position and fully understood the risks that came with them?

You hate liberals. We get it already.

Mark, I have to say that the number of assumptions you make in order to offer your opinion on this matter is simply incredible. You assume the woman's career choice is part of a left wing conspiracy, you assume that she herself is a lefty, you assume the woman guard is somehow "average", you assume that the guard did not think she was up to her duties, you assume that her superiors put her into a situation she wasn't likely to handle, you assume that a male guard could necessarily have resisted the perpetrator.

Adherence to proper protocol is usually more important than adherence to some ideology. And I'd be willing to bet that it was a breakdown in appropriate protocol that caused this incident rather than the political affiliations -- or the sex -- of the individuals involved.

In March, 2005, a similar event occurred in the city of Atlanta, Georgia, when a prisoner on trial for a rape, Brian Nichols, was being escorted to the Courtroom by a 62-year-old female officer in the Fulton County Sheriff's Office

Despite warnings only days earlier that Mr. Nichols was planning something violent, and despite finding a shank in his prison cell, the officer who was about a foot shorter and almost 100 pounds lighter than Mr. Nichols was the only guard with him as he was being escorted from his holding cell to the courtroom. As readers may be aware, he attacked the guard, causing her great harm, then went on to shoot a judge and court reporter dead before fleeing into the public, where he later shot and killed a Federal Agent who was renovating his home in a suburb of Atlanta.

As in the case cited above, charges of political correctness were hurled at the Fulton County Sheriff's Department as being behind this rampage of horror perpetrated by Mr. Nichols. But as an intense investigation unfolded, it became obvious that while the officer was outweighed and outmuscled by Mr. Nichols, the ensuing melée and bloodbath was made possible by - as Ricorun rightly noted - a "breakdown in appropriate protocol." Guards who were assigned to monitor the cameras that caught the initial scuffle had been sent out by their superiors to get coffee and donuts (big surprise there!), and consequently could not possibly have sounded an alarm to which others might have responded. The judge and court reporter might still be alive, as well as the Federal Agent had the alarm been immediately sounded like is should have been. Essentially, Brian Nichols' rampage was enabled by the lack of adherance to the protocols in place, and ostensibly not as a result of political correctness.

However... Ricorun's recitation of apparent assumptions (which I believe are right on point) misses one very important point which is not an assumption at all. That is, like in the Brian Nichols case, the presence of a female officer guarding a violent prisoner who outweighed and outmuscled her would not have been possible but for a program known as Affirmative Action. At some point in the past, Fulton County made the decision to staff itself with x percentage of women, x percentage of specific minorities, and x percentage of people who might arguably not be up to the rigors of the position - per the requirements of Affirmative Action. This issue is still being hotly debated here, because despite the public outcry over the Nichols rampage, little or nothing has changed since that fateful March day in 2005. True, proper protocol might have nipped this incident in the bud, but it is clear that a policy exists within the Sheriff's office that kowtows to the political correctness crowd as articulated by the statute known as Affirmative Action.

To add insult to injury, the officer who was the first to be assaulted recently filed a lawsuit against Fulton County which essentially asserts that she was incapable of providing the necessary security in this situation and that her employer - Fulton County Sheriff's Office - ignored that fact and assigned her to the duty anyway. Because of that, the suit alleges, Fulton County is responsible for her injuries and thus owes her some untold sum of money.

To her credit, I feel compelled to point out that most of the duties of a Fulton County Sheriff involve civil case management, not dealing directly with a hardcore prison population. The officer in question did make a decision to apply for the job, and arguably got the job because she fit the Affirmative Action criteria in two respects - being black and being a female. To the extent that she accepted the job under what later proved to be incorrect assumptions, her court case might have some merit.

Mark's assumptions as recited by Ricorun may be a little loose and fast, but it cannot be denied that oftentimes people apply for jobs that conform to Affirmative Action because they know that they are more likely than not to get the position. And it is no assumption that Affirmative Action is a product of left-wing idealogues. It is an effort to flatten out the competitive field by race and sex. In that respect, there is a legitimate point to be made about arguably less-qualified people being given some of the more difficult tasks that might be better served by their more qualified peers - qualifications in this case being muscle mass and body weight.

The other implied assumption in the post cited above is that somehow this case will cause an uproar for re-examination of the merits of political correctness. As the Brian Nichols case fades into a distant memory and becomes supplanted by the lawsuit on the part of the injured Fulton County Officer, it is becoming clear that nothing of the sort is about to happen. It seems ironic to me that, despite admitting that she wasn't up to the job on the fateful day, the lawsuit still asserts that the responsibility for the injuries she sustained rests with the Fulton County Sheriff's Department, and not with Brian Nichols...

Political correctness gone amok. And still going. And going. And going. And going. À la the pink bunny rabbit of Energizer battery fame...

My aunt is 55 years old, and is the head of security at my county courthouse. She weighs under one hundred pounds, and smokes a pack of cigarettes a day. I love her, but she has no business carrying a weapon and being in control of violent criminals. It is an accident waiting to happen.

It is asinine for us to think that the average woman can contain the average male violent offender - asinine and, as we saw a few months ago, deadly...and we only hope that it won't prove deadly in this case.

I agree with ricorun here. You make three faulty assumptions here:

All women hired for prison guard duty are average.

All men hired for prison guards are bigger than all prisoners.

Male guards don't get taken hostage.

Who would have ever thought a 16 year old female golfer (Michelle Wie) could ever hit a drive over 300 yards. AND could make the cut in a mens tournament?

While I agree that all guards should be physically imposing that should include women who are physically imposing and strong enough to do the job.

That's not PC. That's fair.

Ash,

My placing of "average" in there was deliberate - this particular female guard might be the biggest, baddest woman who ever lived...but more than likely she's average, and that means that even most below-average strength males can over power her.

I can't say that all women who are hired as guards are average - but I do know that in matters of prison guards, police and firefighters, phsysical standards have been drastically reduced in order that women man obtain such employment. Do you want to know why I never considered being a cop? Because I'm 5'7"...back before women were affirmative actioned into the police, you had to be 5'9" to be a cop. That is just one example of the reduction in physical standards in order to accomodate the leftwing idea that women can do whatever men can do - an absurd notion, entirely unsupported by a cursory examination of the differences between men and women.

Men and women are different and play different roles - each equally important, but different, complementary roles. You can try to deny biology and the human soul all you want, but that won't allow a 5'4" woman to successfully guard a 6'2" felon.

Canadian,

Indeed - and I'm very proud of the service our magnificent female servicemember's have provided...but they shouldn't be there. Men fight. Period.

Ricorun,

No, I didn't make an assumption that she's a lefty - for all I know, she's a conservative Republican...but she's there, doing that job, because of an absurd leftwing notion.

Mark, again you show a vast disregard for logic in your intent to BLAME LIBERALS FOR EVERYTHING!

GET OVER YOUR HATRED FOR LIBERALS, MARK!!!!

In this case, I understand the need for someone who is perhaps physically superior to violent male offenders to be in charge of prisoners.

In fact, a friend of mine (6'2" and about 225) works at a residential home for delinquent boys. It was a place I have thought of applying to work for, but I am only about 5'5" and 160 or so. This does provide a difficult position when some of the rather unruly teenagers who live at this home are 16 and built like linebackers.

However, you do not realize that people are TRAINED specifically for certain jobs. I'm sorry Mark, but I am sure that there are many women who could kick your sorry butt, or any big bad criminals too. You see, Mark, there is such a thing as PHYSICS that deals with leverage and other factors that has PROVEN that a very small person, regardless of their gender, if trained properly, can easily outmuscle a large man.

"the bigger they are, the harder they fall" is true. Ask ANY martial artist, Mark. Bruce Lee could destroy many men twice his size.

The point is this, AS USUAL, your pathetic bias against Liberals is seriously clouding your judgement, and your intelligence.

STOP THE "I HATE LIBERALS" BS and THINK for a change!!

Just because someone is small, or female for that matter, DOES NOT mean that they cannot handle the responsibilities of certain jobs. Have some compassion for this woman, instead of trying to paint her the bad guy and blame everything on Liberals as usual.

I thought you said you had turned a new leaf, and were going to try to think more openmindedly. Why not practice that, and stop with the PATHETIC redundancy of every post trying to say how evil Liberals are.

And, BTW, why not answer my question of one bad thing dealing with America, without blaming Liberals.

Your hatred for Liberals is PATHETIC, and not how a grown man of 40 something should think.

Think on these things.....

Robert,

Who do you want protecting you from violent felons: a 5'1", 110 lb woman with martial arts training, or a 6'2", 240 lb man?

A small for-instance: The reason there is men's and women's professional golf is not because of bathroom difficulties...it is because the average professional female golfer would be easily defeated by the average professional male golfer. Golf is not the most physically taxing sport out there...and yet women cannot compete on a level playing field, on the average, with men.

I will now assert that it is you who have not thought about these matters - you have, instead, taken your pre-conceived conclusion and are trying desperately to make the facts back you up.

This is not about hatred - and, at any rate, I don't hate anyone. It is about some rather foolish thinking on the left and the real-world consequences this folly has. It wasn't some conservative 20 years ago who said, "hey, lets get some women to guard violent felons". That was liberals...just as it is liberals who might make it, God forbid, possible for you to be in a burning building and all you've got is a 110 lb female firefighter to drag you out of there.

Best of luck....

Robert,

You make a valid point about technique, but you're forgetting a few things. First, it takes years, perhaps even decades, of training to get to the point where one can use technique to overcome large obstables in real life. Teaching these advanced techniques would take immense amounts of tax-payer money, and it would be a lot more beneficial to rely on natural strength - that of built muscle - than waste time on making every officer a black belt. Second, what if we're dealing with a 6'2 felon that is a martial arts expert? Assuming then that the officer and the criminal are on equal footing when it comes to technique, the smaller guardswoman must then somehow make her smaller size an advantage against the criminals large muscle strength and higher stature. In my opinion, however, the advantage gained per pound of force in muscle outweighs the advantage gained per amount of maneuverability per inch lost. So if it comes to extremes, putting a well-trained 6'2 guard with a felon is better than putting a well-trained 5'2 guard with a felon.

Omega and Mark, I can understand why you might think that size does matter - BUT, if size is the only thing that matters, then WHY does gender matter? You might say that most women are smaller than men, but you would only be partially correct. You see, I am a small man, and have always been small (that did not stop me from taking down a 6'8" 250 pound man back in my wrestling days) and there are MANY women who are both bigger and stronger than me. Women also have been PROVEN to have faster reflexes than men.

Are there differemces between men and women - sure. i am well aware of that fact. But not ALL women are small and not ALL women are inept at men's jobs. The key factor is to FIT THE RIGHT PERSON TO THE RIGHT JOB!!

GENDER SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR - it is about one's personality and one's strengths - not about one's race or gender.

You claim that I am just trying to back up my claim by scrounging for facts, but I ask you guys - HAVE YOU EVER SET FOOT IN THE REAL WORLD??

You know, the world where there DO exist very athletic, very strong, very powerful women? I should know, I dated one one time. She was 5'10" VERY athlethic and VERY strong.

There are also many men who are weak by comparison to some women. Go out and look around a bit and you will see them. Just as you will the strong women.

People come in ALL shapes, sizes, and abilities. EVERYBODY has strengths and weaknesses. We need the right PERSON for the right job, and nopne of this gender crap.

What are you guys afraid of, that you might get beaten by a girl? That there just might be some truth to the fact that we are ALL equal, just different? Are you afraid to admit that your "perfect little world" that you have built in your heads might just come crashing down when you see the REAL world?

ALL people are valued, and ALL people can do what they put their mind to, so long as they have the right fit for what they intend to do. Women CAN be just as effective as men in many positions, as long as they can prove that they have the ability to do the job.

If you cannot see that, I pity you.

AND STOP BLAMING LIBERALS FOR EVERYTHING!!!!!

take responsibility and realize that CONSERVATIVES MAKE MISTAKES TOO!!!!!!!

I don't know of any correctional facilities that don't have women guards. I do know of a few Security Treatment Units that house the so called "criminally insane" that only have male guards. That is due to the deep hatred of women by the inmates and is usually part of their mental condition. The fact that there are isolated incidents of female guards being taking hostage by prisoners are just that-- isolated. I grant you that women don't have the upper body strength a man does, but we can usually defend ourselves with proper training. A 6 inch knife can do alot of damage regardless of gender. What this kife wielding inmate forgot was the second rule of prison life: You take any guard hostage, your life is over.

Robert -

Anytime you have to reference Bruce Lee in an argument , you lose automatically.

EVEN IF YOU USE CAPS to illustrate your point.

Mark, You miss the point. Should not the biggest baddest female to ever live be able to work as a guard? Should not a 5'7" male be unable to work as a prison guard?

I would rather have say Pam Grier on my side than Tom Cruise for example. Maybe your position is a carefully cloaked, Catholic, barefoot and pregnant philosopy?

As a woman, when I joined the military, believe it or not it was my hope to do a job in a non-combat function, which is why I chose electronics as a field. At any rate I always thought and considered my place in life was to back up the MEN defending me, for the bad guys are, percentage-wise, MEN, and the plain truth is that no matter how buff or skilled a woman might become in hand to hand combat, a man can always become bigger and stronger and win out by BRUTE force.

I get Mark's point completely. In it's constant demand for 'equality' the view of the left does not take into account 'praticality' and thus a woman is allowed to put herself in ridiculously dangerous situations.

As far as my own service in the military, I never saw combat, which worked out for my hopes, but when I think that the military wasn't used in it's full capacity during the Clinton era, I really kind of feel ashamed for hoping that way.

Mark, stop all this "hating of liberals." ;)

BTW, Mark doesn't hate libs--I do.

uffy, welcome back. It's been a long time; where ya been?

Ash,

Not only should I not be a prison guard, but I shouldn't be a cop or firefighter...I'm not strong enough to do the job properly. Its much the same reason I'll never be a linebacker or a heavyweight boxer.

If, however, a woman can pass the exact same physical standards test that the men pass (without any lowering of the old standards) then, sure, she can take the job...but that would be one in a hundred and not at all amenable to affirmative action.

Its not a matter of either agreeing they should be cops or thinking they should remain barefoot and pregnant - its a matter of reality. Men and women are different, and we must acknowledge those differences in our decisions.

Well I can only talk about Firefighting and First Response training and not police or prison guards.

As far as I'm concerned anyone who can do the job and past the physical requirements should be able to do it. Heck we need all the trained and competent individuals we can in Fire and Rescue. Now the key here though is being able to pass the requirements. I can see changing some for say, height. Height isn't that big a deal in fire and rescue, especially if you're able to haul that hose, move what needs to be moved, or get to where you need to go. But lowering requirements for things like lifting ability, lung capacity, and the like is stupid and dangerous.

In fact, I'm a large guy (6'1" 300 LBS) and I can do all the physical requirements that I need but one. I do not have the lung capactiy to use a SCBA. (Self Contained Breathing Aparatus) They want to make sure you can breath properly and fully no matter what, otherwise you should not be wearing an SCBA. Well because of my inablility to breath properly I will not be assigned to any SCBA required duties. That's fine by me, and it should be the same for everyone (as far as I know it is). It shouldn't matter how big or small I am, or if I'm a man or a woman, if I can't perform as needed I shouldn't have the position. That's it.

If, however, a woman can pass the exact same physical standards test that the men pass (without any lowering of the old standards) then, sure, she can take the job- Mark Noonan

Bless you Mark.You have a problem with Affirmitive Action, that's fine. I do too. You'd have a lot less enemies if you were upfront from the begining.

Hmm... I think I'd let you slide on this one Ash. Mark has been as Anti-Affirmative action as I have for years. I think he assumes sometimes that his readers know that. We've gone on and on about it for years whenever it comes up.

Otay. I of course am rather new to the blog. But I suppose it doesn't suprise me that Mark is anti affirmative action. Guess it would be more of a suprise that I am also. I just want everyone to have a fair shot.....