Do you suppose that they will continue to support him after he's been charged with war crimes? Peace

33%

steve,

If the Democrats somehow manage to win some seats in November, and misuse those granted seats to kick off plans for impeachment and grand indictments upon the entire executive branch, I can foresee the entire Democratic party being shunned for taking advantage of the common voter and quickly losing many more seats in 2008 than they may have gained in 2006.

It's true that there are many Democrats that aren't happy with Bush's job, but only the most extremely left-leaning individuals actually support impeachment as a rational option. Or at least, I hope so, or the country's future is lost.

I'm sure they are all impressed with his marksmanship and his 5 or 6 or 7 military deferrals.

More impressed that they would be with the four deferments Kerry got. Loser

Hey, morongeo, what's a deferral--the opposite of referral? Loser-moron.

Omega, ignore steve--he's not a valid contributor here. He's a stupid teenager who likes to disrupt, and who doesn't realze that nobody's going in front of a war crimes tribunal.

Steve, a rope, and a tree. Some assembly required...

That phoney-baloney "peace" thing is wearing a little thin. Thought that went out with tie-dyed t-shirts and wire-rimmed specs. Unfortunately, it meant, at that time, a lot of very negative things---Run and Hide, Abandon Your Allies, Renege on Promises and Treaties, etc. And I think it still does. The hypocrisy of pretending to be in favor of a peaceful world was soon exposed when the "peace" movement supported cold-blooded killers ranging from Castro to the Black Panthers.

Cheney was already ineligible for the draft when it was started up during the Viet Nam war---in college, married, and a father, he did not qualify on several fronts. He never claimed to be a war hero when he was not, he never had his daddy remove able-bodied soldiers from units that needed them to babysit him and make sure he had plenty of pot to keep him happy and out of trouble, he never faked wounds or falsely claimed enemy action to get medals for band-aid scratches, he never turned tail and ran when the other boats in his group rushed to the aid of a boat that had hit a mine, he never traveled to foreign countries to malign this one, he never lied to Congress under oath in an attempt to persuade this country to turn tail and run from a war we had essentially won, leaving millions to be slaughtered (another legacy of the 'peace' movement) and he never invented cruel and malicious lies about brave men and women who had served honorably and well.

But he did have the kind of accident that happens hundreds, if not thousands, of times every year. And he took responsibility for it.

Fortunately, the sane people in this country understand what is encompassed by the term "war crimes" and they are far more likely to apply it to someone who, while an officer in the United States Navy, secretly traveled to an enemy country to assure that enemy of his support and efforts to help that enemy prevail---one of the few promises kept by John Kerry. Seeing it tossed around by ignorant partisans with no respect for the truth or understanding of the facts does not impress them. But I'll bet you get lots of approval from your fellow travelers.

You people have no shame.

Deleted - childish and annoying

Awww shoot Keefer just got off work from his toll booth on the turnpike and is tryin to kill folks again.

Was that supposed to be humor?
Kerry received deferments, that fact cannot be changed. He also joined the Navel Reserve to avoid Viet Nam, sucks to be him.

Mr. Bush, on the other hand volunteered to serve in Viet Nam. The military respect Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, they have no respect for liberal surrender monkeys like you.

-Mr. Bush, on the other hand volunteered to serve in Viet Nam

I'm curious how you came up with that. could have sworn I remember he 'requested' not to be assigned over seas in '68, the same year he he worked on a senator's campaign, the same year Kerry was in the mekong delta.

could be wrong...correct me if i am

Awww shoot Keefer just got off work from his toll booth on the turnpike and is tryin to kill folks again.

Bane,

You have your facts wrong.

I won't call for him to be brought up on war crimes charges, if he'll stop committing them. And for all you Christians,"You cannot have Peace(Christ) by making war(anti-Christ). And as Christ said,"Peace be with you." Christ, the Prince of Peace. Peace

Of course Bane has the facts wrong, he is learning from the best liar of them all, Mr. Noonan. Bush wanted to be in Vietnam, no one promised a quick and cheap Iraq war, no one connected Saddam to 9/11, the US NEVER tortured anyone, etc.

Looks like Noonan has a competitor for Iraqi Information Minister.

DAV, Brokeback, and the rest,

Actually 1lT Bush did volunteer for Vietnam service under a program called "Palace Alert". However, only senior pilots with over 500 hours in the F-102 were being accepted for the program. 1LT Bush did not have the requisite number of hours to qualify, thus was not accepted into the program. Instead, he continued to fly Air Defense missions for the Texas Air National Guard.

Facts by their nature are facts. You insist on arguing facts, here they are;
Kerry petitioned for deferments while at Yale, that’s a fact. When his number came up he tried to get the draft board to give him a one-year extension to study in France, that’s a fact. When they refused he decided to enlist in the Navy Reserves. In 1966, according to his service record he was enlisted in the US Naval reserves, status “inactive.” Sucks to be him, after the reservists were called up he went to officer candidate school in Newport, Rhode Island seeking an officer’s commission in the Reserves.
He next found himself aboard the USS Gridley in 1967-68. Being at the bottom of the officer’s totem pole as a lt. JG, he discovered he could have a “command” if he were on a Swift boat, which at the time patrolled the Vietnam coast. Because North Vietnam didn’t have a Navy this was a cushy job with no danger involved. According to the Boston Globe, “Kerry also believed a swift boat assignment would keep him away from the frontlines of combat.”
After he was transferred to the swifts was when they were reassigned into the Mekong Rivers, suck to be him.
George Bush received high marks on his flight assessment in April 1971, “Lt. Bush is an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot,” wrote his commanding officer in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in Houston, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. Bush “performed in an outstanding manner … a natural leader.” but he had been trained and was fully capable in an F-102, which was no longer being used in Vietnam. From 1968 through 1970 the F-102 that Lt. Bush flew was used in “Palace Alert”. Lt. Bush and another pilot named Fred Bradley inquired about being transferred into this unit asked for reassignment to Palace alert but were told by “MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.”
Bush was honorably discharged from the Air National Guard in October 1973 at the rank of first lieutenant. An ANG physical dated 15 May 1971 indicates that he had logged 625 flight hours by that time, and he ultimately completed 326 hours as pilot and 10 as co-pilot while serving with the 111th FIS in Texas. In the fall of 1973, Bush began coursework at the Harvard Business School where he received an MBA in 1975.
(www.aerospace.org)

DAV and Broke,
I'll be patiently waiting for an apology from both of you. But, I fully expect neither of you will have the class to admit a mistake.

Bane...
don't hold your breath on an apology. You can't be wrong when you're irrational and illogical. You're just irrational and illogical.

Opie,
The Senate campaign in Alabama was in 1972.

Seven year old Logan McLean (sp?) proudly saluted Vice President Dick Cheney's motorcade yesterday as it passed by his house on the plains near Medical Lake, Wash. The Spokane police department officers escorting the motorcade, that saw him, came to his house today to present him with patches and congratulate him for the "mature respect," he showed the vice president.

Seven year old Logan McLean (sp?) proudly saluted Vice President Dick Cheney's motorcade yesterday
Sounds about right, anybody over age 7 gave cheney the finger.

BTW, to get flying hours you have to show up and fly but first pass the physical. Not sure George was around long enough to do either. As for the National Guard it was well known that you had to be connected to get in ahead of everyone on the waiting list. Listen, most of us don't blame George for not wanting to go to Viet Nam - only the insane wanted to go - but we do like to keep the record straight. George wasn't a war hero and he wasn't a draft dodger but he was the son of a wealthy high ranking government official. Face it George didn't go because he didn't have to go, hell he didn't even have to finish is tour in the National Guard.

Apologize for what? Do you really think the president is so stupid that he didn't realize he was training on out dated equipment and would never have to go to Vietnam?

Here are the real facts that even Bane can comprehend:

Gore: Went to Vietnam
Kerry: Went to Vietnam
Bush: Did not go to Vietnam

I don't think I can make it any more simple than that for you Bane. In the end it doesn't really matter to me whether they went to Vietnam or not. But please don't lie and act like Bush wanted to be there. If you wanted to fight in Vietnam, you knew how to get there.

I knew you wouldn't have the class to admit you're wrong.

*********
BTW, to get flying hours you have to show up and fly but first pass the physical. Not sure George was around long enough to do either.
**********

Bush served nearly two years full-time, while he was in flight school, with the USAF. he took and passed every physical required of him when he was flying. The invented controversy centers around the last yearly physical scheduled, required for continued flight status. At that time, Bush was applying for an early out, as were so many others, and did not need to take the physical as he was not going to continue flying.

********
As for the National Guard it was well known that you had to be connected to get in ahead of everyone on the waiting list.
**********

As for the National Guard, it was well known that the National Guard was looking for pilots. It was well known that the "weekend warrior" ANG had a waiting list. It is well known to those who bother to find out what the h*** they are talking about that there was no such list for pilots. Flying was dangerous, and it involved a much greater commitment---nearly two years of full-time assigment to the Air Force for training, in addition to the four years of being on call for intercept duty.

*************
Listen, most of us don't blame George for not wanting to go to Viet Nam - only the insane wanted to go -
*************

Only those who understood the need for this country to honor its commitments to its allies, to help protect them against Communist invasions. But I am sure you are familiar with SEATO, and the reasons for fighting in Viet Nam.

Fortunately, the country did have mature, courageous, and dedicated young men and women who understood the situation and who loved their country, none of whom were insane.

***********
... but we do like to keep the record straight. George wasn't a war hero and he wasn't a draft dodger but he was the son of a wealthy high ranking government official.
**********

As was Al Gore, whose daddy talked him out of running off to Canada because he was running for reelection and faced possible defeat anyway, and could not afford to have a draft dodger son. So Daddy---"a wealthy high ranking government official" ---arranged for Al to join and volunteer as a photographer in Viet Nam, and then pulled able-bodied soldiers off duty to babysit Al, and keep him supplied with plenty of pot, so he would be safe and not get himself in trouble. Read Al's autobiography for most of this.

************
Face it George didn't go because he didn't have to go,.....
**************

Actually, he didn't go because first he needed more time in his plane to qualify, and then because they were phasing the plane out and did not want to requalify him on another plane as we were winding down in Viet Nam by that time and had enough planes and pilots over there.

********
.....hell he didn't even have to finish is tour in the National Guard.
*********

Many did not finish their tours in the National Guard. As career pilots returned from Viet Nam and had to keep up their flight hours to remain current, the ANG had a shortage of planes, and ANG pilots were encouraged not to fly, to make those planes available. Also, as the potential need for pilots to be available for Viet Nam service no longer existed, there was no reason to keep all those ANG pilots on duty. Those who had reasonable reasons to apply for early outs were encouraged to do so. Bush wanted to go to Harvard Business School to get his MBA.

Damn Damn Damn those pesky facts!!! Not that they are going to get in the way of cherished falsehoods, but there they are....

***
"*********
BTW, to get flying hours you have to show up and fly but first pass the physical. Not sure George was around long enough to do either.
**********

Bush served nearly two years full-time, while he was in flight school, with the USAF. he took and passed every physical required of him when he was flying. The invented controversy centers around the last yearly physical scheduled, required for continued flight status. At that time, Bush was applying for an early out, as were so many others, and did not need to take the physical as he was not going to continue flying.

********
As for the National Guard it was well known that you had to be connected to get in ahead of everyone on the waiting list.
**********

As for the National Guard, it was well known that the National Guard was looking for pilots. It was well known that the "weekend warrior" ANG had a waiting list. It is well known to those who bother to find out what the h*** they are talking about that there was no such list for pilots. Flying was dangerous, and it involved a much greater commitment---nearly two years of full-time assigment to the Air Force for training, in addition to the four years of being on call for intercept duty.

*************
Listen, most of us don't blame George for not wanting to go to Viet Nam - only the insane wanted to go -
*************

Only those who understood the need for this country to honor its commitments to its allies, to help protect them against Communist invasions. But I am sure you are familiar with SEATO, and the reasons for fighting in Viet Nam.

Fortunately, the country did have mature, courageous, and dedicated young men and women who understood the situation and who loved their country, none of whom were insane.

***********
... but we do like to keep the record straight. George wasn't a war hero and he wasn't a draft dodger but he was the son of a wealthy high ranking government official.
**********

As was Al Gore, whose daddy talked him out of running off to Canada because he was running for reelection and faced possible defeat anyway, and could not afford to have a draft dodger son. So Daddy---"a wealthy high ranking government official" ---arranged for Al to join and volunteer as a photographer in Viet Nam, and then pulled able-bodied soldiers off duty to babysit Al, and keep him supplied with plenty of pot, so he would be safe and not get himself in trouble. Read Al's autobiography for most of this.

************
Face it George didn't go because he didn't have to go,.....
**************

Actually, he didn't go because first he needed more time in his plane to qualify, and then because they were phasing the plane out and did not want to requalify him on another plane as we were winding down in Viet Nam by that time and had enough planes and pilots over there.

********
.....hell he didn't even have to finish is tour in the National Guard.
*********

Many did not finish their tours in the National Guard. As career pilots returned from Viet Nam and had to keep up their flight hours to remain current, the ANG had a shortage of planes, and ANG pilots were encouraged not to fly, to make those planes available. Also, as the potential need for pilots to be available for Viet Nam service no longer existed, there was no reason to keep all those ANG pilots on duty. Those who had reasonable reasons to apply for early outs were encouraged to do so. Bush wanted to go to Harvard Business School to get his MBA.

Damn Damn Damn those pesky facts!!! Not that they are going to get in the way of cherished falsehoods, but there they are....

Wrong about what? You have proven nothing. You claim he volunteered for a program he was ineligible for and that was no longer even in existence. Do you honestly think the president was that stupid that he didn't understand any of these things? Do you think that little of the president's intelligence?

Does it count as "volunteering" if the program is being shut down and you don't qualify for it in the first place?

Once again Bane Bush never went to Vietnam and Kerry did. You can try to rewrite things and convince the stupid people of the world otherwise, but those are the facts of the situation. If you want to try and dispute that then go ahead.

I understand that you are upset because the president you supported is failing. He no longer can get any of his issues passed in Congress, he is causing low poll numbers for any Republicans that are tied to closely to him, his poll numbers are at all times lows in every poll out there, etc. Do you have the class to admit that maybe it has something to do with him and not place all the blame on the Democrats.

**********
"Apologize for what? Do you really think the president is so stupid that he didn't realize he was training on out dated equipment and would never have to go to Vietnam?"
**********

OK, so maybe in LibLand, people sign up with the military and then demand certain assignments. But in the real world, you sign up for pilot training and you fly what they tell you to fly.

And when Bush applied for Palace Guard, they were still flying F-102s, as I understand, but they were phasing them out and not sending any more over. Pretty clever of him to get assigned to a plane like that, wasn't it? Because of course, it was all a plan.

Does the tinfoil hat interfere with reception for the crystal ball? Because you seem awfully sure of your ability to go back more than 30 years and determine the motives and goals of a man you never met, with what is obviously no knowledge at all of the military or Viet Nam or, really, much of anything.

Almiranta, you obviously keep forgetting the most simple fact of all.

Bush: No Vietnam
Kerry and Gore: In Vietnam

You can try and make it look like Bush is the real war hero of the three, but the most basic fact of all does not support this in any way.

Do you question the truth of this?

Why must you prop Bush up as being a war hero? He is not running for President again, the propping up can stop already.

From an article by Col. John H Waumaugh Jr., SUSAF, (ret):

"During the Vietnam conflict, military pilot training was greatly expanded to accommodate the increased need for pilots. Thousands of pilots were trained during this conflict, primarily to support mission and pilot rotation requirements. F-105, F 4 fighter pilots, and the pilots of other combat aircraft were routinely rotated out of the combat theatre after completing their 100 combat missions. That meant that other pilots needed to be trained to take their place. As the Vietnam conflict began to phase down around 1971, there was a surplus of hundreds of pilots in the U.S. Military, for which there were relatively few flying jobs. Thus, the active duty force as well as ANG and Reserve forces could be very accommodating to those who wanted to pursue alternative career paths (such as Lt. Bush going to Harvard Business School). In fact, these sorts of administrative actions (early releases) helped alleviate the challenges facing the services of a pilot surplus. Also, commanders were lenient in allowing individuals to fulfill their service obligations in ways not involving flying duty. Such arrangements were coordinated at the unit level.

Just as Lt. Bush's supervisor released him from the ANG to go to Harvard, I released a pilot from the Air Force months early (when I was Commander of the 4442nd Tactical Control Group) so he could participate in the pilot hiring cycle of Delta Airlines. I could have held this pilot to the end of his service commitment but chose not to -- since letting him go early created no hardship to our unit. Rather, it gave a pilot (who had served his country well) an immediate opportunity for a future career. I point this fact out so that the public knows that Commanders have the prerogative to make decisions that take into consideration the needs of the Unit and the needs of an individual ready to make a career transition out of the service. Having been a Squadron Commander, I can tell you this -- we know the status of our assigned personnel all the time -- everyone is accounted for. We reported the status of all our squadron personnel daily to a higher level in our organization. Likewise, Lt. Bush's Squadron Commander of 30 plus years ago (Lt. Col. Killian, now deceased), would have known where Lt. Bush was or, at the very least, how to contact him should that have been necessary. The bottom line: Lt. Bush's documented Air National Guard service exceeded the requirements set forth in his Guard contract and Lt. Bush received an Honorable Discharge."

And when Bush applied for Palace Guard, they were still flying F-102s, as I understand, but they were phasing them out and not sending any more over.

Thank you for making my point. You admit that when he applied, they were not sending any more of the planes he was going to fly to Vietnam.

Because you seem awfully sure of your ability to go back more than 30 years and determine the motives and goals of a man you never met, with what is obviously no knowledge at all of the military or Viet Nam or, really, much of anything

But you seem perfectly willing to do the same thing with Gore and Kerry. What makes you so special that you get to do it and I don't. What is the word for that....oh yeah, hypocrite.

I think they were all privleged youth who tried to use that to avoid major combat. I think Bush just did a better job than the others.

Classless Broketruth wrote, "Of course Bane has the facts wrong,"

Not one fact wrong, still waiting for an apology.

Bane,

Ed Gurney's Florida campaign that Bush worked on was in '68, while Kerry was fighting

do I get an apology?

Almiranta spouted this ludicrous crap Fortunately, the country did have mature, courageous, and dedicated young men and women who understood the situation and who loved their country, none of whom were insane.

Most of whom were black. Got it pal, nothing to do with your bullshit about love of country etc. It really sounds like you weren't there. Those who went to Nam were drafted and if anyone said anything as stupid as you just said they would have been talked down from their drug induced hallucinations.

I didn't think it was possible to be this big a liar, this stupid and this delusional at one time.

Opie,
I apologize, Bush was hired to work on a Senatorial campaign in 1968; during the period between basic training and flight school.

However, John Kerry did not arrive in country, until after this time; he started with the Swift Boats in mid-November 1968 while Bush was in Flight School in Georgia. So you're half right, but you get a full apology.

Jacob,
You're just wrong; the military realized in 1968 that draftees couldn’t be trusted in the war zone. Begining in 1969 only enlistees went to Viet Nam.