First, let us have a quick description of Niger:
Niger is one of the poorest countries in the world, ranking last on the United Nations Development Fund index of human development. It is a landlocked, Sub-Saharan nation, whose economy centers on subsistence crops, livestock, and some of the world's largest uranium deposits.Drought cycles, desertification, a 2.9% population growth rate, and the drop in world demand for uranium have undercut the economy. Niger shares a common currency, the CFA franc, and a common central bank, the Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO), with seven other members of the West African Monetary Union. In December 2000, Niger qualified for enhanced debt relief under the International Monetary Fund program for Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) and concluded an agreement with the Fund on a Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility (PRGF). Debt relief provided under the enhanced HIPC initiative significantly reduces Niger's annual debt service obligations, freeing funds for expenditures on basic health care, primary education, HIV/AIDS prevention, rural infrastructure, and other programs geared at poverty reduction. In December 2005, it was announced that Niger had received 100% multilateral debt relief from the IMF, which translates into the forgiveness of approximately $86 million USD in debts to the IMF, excluding the remaining assistance under HIPC. Nearly half of the government's budget is derived from foreign donor resources. Future growth may be sustained by exploitation of oil, gold, coal, and other mineral resources. Uranium prices have recovered somewhat in the last few years. A drought and locust infestation in 2005 led to food shortages for as many as 2.5 million Nigerians.
Got that? It is a dirt poor country which lives mostly by subsistence agriculture...the only thing someone from outside Niger wants from inside Niger is uranium. Now there is this, from Christopher Hitchens:
In February 1999, Zahawie left his Vatican office for a few days and paid an official visit to Niger, a country known for absolutely nothing except its vast deposits of uranium ore. It was from Niger that Iraq had originally acquired uranium in 1981, as confirmed in the Duelfer Report. In order to take the Joseph Wilson view of this Baathist ambassadorial initiative, you have to be able to believe that Saddam Hussein's long-term main man on nuclear issues was in Niger to talk about something other than the obvious. Italian intelligence (which first noticed the Zahawie trip from Rome) found it difficult to take this view and alerted French intelligence (which has better contacts in West Africa and a stronger interest in nuclear questions). In due time, the French tipped off the British, who in their cousinly way conveyed the suggestive information to Washington. As everyone now knows, the disclosure appeared in watered-down and secondhand form in the president's State of the Union address in January 2003.
Regardless of what else might have happened, it is dead certain that Saddam did, indeed, attempt to get uranium from Africa - and it appears he tried to get it specifically in Niger. As Hitchens goes on to note, what has muddied the waters are those forged documents that Wilson lied about seeing - no one knows where the forgery came from, they weren't used to back up Administraiton claims, but the fact of their existence has convinced some people - especially on the left - that Saddam was framed in the matter of African uranium. The fact that this has been the result of the forgeries indicates they were likely created by someone with a vested interest in derailing American policy - which means they can be Russian, French, Niger or Iraqi fabrications. Be that as it may, they are entirely irrelevant - Saddam sent one of his top nuke men to Niger and the only possible reason for Saddam doing this is to obtain uranium.
Now, we know that Wilson came back from Niger and actually confirmed Saddam's attempts to obtain uranium; his subsequent lies in the New York TImes and elsewhere notwithstanding. What is really curious is that Plame was denigrating all stories about Saddamite attempts to obtain African uranium - indeed, she seems to have set up her husband for the Niger junket because she believed that there was nothing to the story - even though CIA already knew of Saddam sending a top nuke person to Niger. Plame is either monumentally stupid, or so wedded to a political worldview that she couldn't bring herself to support the policies of a Republican President.
Just an amazing world we live in - liars are lionized; a President who does the right thing is slandered, and an inuman monster finds strange, new allies in the American left...
Posted by Mark Noonan at April 16, 2006 04:59 PM
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Comments
Who was the top person? Dr. WMD who CIA dealed out of a trial? He gased his own people.
Uranium is safe, WMD(bioterror) is not, so why free Dr. WMD in Iraq? Plame pays off again and Joe gets some contractor cash.
Posted by: Ann o Tation at April 16, 2006 07:19 PM
Not this again. The French controled the mines. The best mine was flooded. The forged documents were created by the Massad and were passed to Italy for release. Saddam had no centrifuges. Peace
Posted by: steve at April 16, 2006 08:09 PM
Steve,
Why would Mossad create transparant forgeries? What possible gain could they get from such in-expertly forged documents which weren't even used in the justification for liberating Iraq?
Why does uranium from Niger have to come from the "best mine"? What is wrong with the "second best mine?".
Finally, we are to believe that French politicians who have been bribed to the tune of tens of millions of dollars by Saddam would ensure that Saddam didn't get any uranium out of Niger?
Have you ever been to the real world?
Posted by: Mark Noonan at April 16, 2006 08:12 PM
Mark,
We both know it is not hard to get a letter from an officer / enlisted man supporting the position of their boss.
It is much hard to find memebers of the military to disagree with the boss in public.
The best SecDef is one who doesn't loose a man.
-Joe
Posted by: -Joe at April 16, 2006 08:13 PM
Joe---wrong thread. Wrong idea, if you can call it that, but also on the wrong thread. Assuming you were trying to say, in typical incoherent Lefty fashiion, that it is your belief that the "best SedDef is one who doesn't LOSE a man.." in other words, one whose term does not include one single loss of life in military conflict---then the kindest thing I could possibly say to you is that you are a total idiot. Any wimpy, tail-between-his-legs, delusional peacenik could qualify, under your bizarre criterion,, as a "best SecDef"---and the SecDefs who protected our country in wars and conflicts and during threats would not qualify.
Scoot on over to relevant posts to learn a little about how being in the military, even achieving rank, does not automatically convey intelligence, comprehension of strategy, or political objectivism. On the contrary, the military is full of out-of-step dinosaurs who are very threatened by the Administration's grasp of the changing face of world-wide conflict---changes which leave the stodgy plodders in the dust. There are also ardent Lefties who are silly enough to be sucked into the All Hate All The Time agenda of the anti-Bushies, and who are willing to parade their stupidity in hopes of impressing a few Joes here and there.
Posted by: Almiranta at April 16, 2006 09:57 PM
But back to Plame...it has amazed me from Day 1 how Plame's gross incompetence has gotten conveniently ignored by the fawning media who know, simply KNOW, that she was a bold and courageous undercover agent, risking her life. How do they know? Because she TOLD them, silly.
Plame may or may not have been doing an adequate job back in the day, when she really did work undercover. She was brought back to DC when Aldrich Ames blew so many covers, but looking at her performance after she got back I have to wonder if that was just a convenient excuse to get her out of Dodge before she got someone killed. Unless you can believe that she was compentent then, and only became an inept idiot later, you have to wonder if the CIA was thrilled to have an excuse to get her back in DC, in an office job, where she couldn't really do much harm.
Because when she was working in a CIA office, as an analysyt, she and hubby Joe told the whole wide world about it---at least the Beltway world, which is all that mattered to them. Press circles, intelligence circles, social circles, and wherever any of those circles overlapped, Plame's employment with the CIA was common knowledge. Joe listed her in his bio as working for the CIA.
Then she got herself listed, under her own name, in a public data bank as a political contributor, USING HER OWN NAME, and listing, not the CIA, but the fake company she was supposedly working for, as a supposedly secret front. A defender said "of course---that was her cover story"..which would only make sense if no one knew she really worked for the CIA. But all those who did know that---and there were many---would have to wonder why she suddenly claimed two very different employers.
Plame was an idiot, Wilson was an idiot, neither one was ethical or honorable, both were liars, and both set themselves up. The big question is, why are so many so eager to suspend rational thought to accept them as they portray themselves, and not as they so obviously are?
Posted by: Almiranta at April 16, 2006 10:08 PM
Mark
All clear thinking individuals know that Iraq was seeking Uranium from Niger, the Prime Minister of Niger at the time said they were. You're never going to convince the America hating left, they must ignore any facts that are contrary to their severe case of Bush Derangement Syndrome.
Posted by:
CJ at April 16, 2006 10:34 PM
The Niger forgeries were so bad that they were discounted by virtually everyone who looked at them. As Hitchens says, the fake documents appear to have been created specifically to cast doubt on genuine - and incriminating - documents.
Joe Wilson's Mission to Niger seems almost exactly parallel. A fake mission with a pre-ordained verdict: false intel in order to cast doubt on genuine - and incriminating - intel.
It's as if both are products of the same mind, or part of the same counter-intelligence project.
Joe Wilson claimed to have seen and debunked those Niger documents months before they were even in the hands of US intelligence. In fact, Joe Wilson should never have seen those documents at all. If he did see them, he would have to have seen them while they were being prepared.
Most likely, he's simply a self-aggrandizing liar, and his wife is bad at her job.
Posted by: lyle at April 17, 2006 01:05 AM
Almiranta,
All too typical of CIA operations, though...we hope the new CIA director is making some good changes, but I've been of the view for about 20 years that the CIA should be abolished - this stemming from the surprising knowledge that when CIA was first set up, the FBI wasn't allowed to do background checks...and given that CIA was set up with a very large number of former OSS agents - with the OSS having been riddled with Soviet agents and sympathisers - it just seems certain that the organization started with moles.
These moles would have betrayed confidences, of course - but in addition to that they would have recruited, hired and promoted other moles, and when they couldn't do that, they' work to see that the least competant people rose to the top. Bottom line, I just don't trust it as an institution - abolish it, carefully screen the members who wish to continue government employment and those who pass a rigorous background check plus competancy testing can go into State and Defense intelligence agencies.
Posted by: Mark Noonan at April 17, 2006 01:17 AM
CJ,
I wonder, though...I wish I had the resources to really chck in to Wilson's activities from Niger Trip to NY Times Opinion Piece: who did he talk to? When? Why?
I smell a large rat in all this.
Posted by: Mark Noonan at April 17, 2006 01:21 AM
Now that you've again tried to breathe life into the old Niger/uranium/Iraq rumors, do any of you have anything that might be considered evidence...as opposed to speculation? You use a lot of words in the piece, but add nothing that wasn't known years ago. Give it up unless you can come up with the goods. It just makes the neos look sillier and more desparate.
Posted by: Rob at April 17, 2006 02:30 AM
Rob,
The goods are there - only willful blindness on your part prevents you from acknowledging them...Saddam's nuke guy went to Niger. There is no reason for anyone to go to Niger unless they want uranium. Ergo, Saddam sought uranium in Niger.
Wilson is a liar, Plame is a fool - and only dunces on the left can't see this.
Posted by: Mark Noonan at April 17, 2006 02:47 AM
Mark
Doesn't it get boring having to prove the same thing over and over again? I suppose far left wing fanatics like Rob never bothered to read the Butler report or the Senate committee report which are both quoted here.
Posted by:
CJ at April 17, 2006 05:50 AM
The "rat" as you put it, is the fact that Plame was responsible for gathering intelligence on the Iranian nuclear program. That was her job with the CIA. Cheney's leak folded that tent. What are our capibilities for gathering intelligence in Iran today? All roads lead to Rome. Peace
Posted by: steve at April 17, 2006 09:32 AM
CJ,
Have to keep hammering away at it...these Big Lie people would run everything if we didn't keep calling them on it...
Posted by: Mark Noonan at April 17, 2006 11:59 AM
Post a comment
Who was the top person? Dr. WMD who CIA dealed out of a trial? He gased his own people.
Uranium is safe, WMD(bioterror) is not, so why free Dr. WMD in Iraq? Plame pays off again and Joe gets some contractor cash.
Not this again. The French controled the mines. The best mine was flooded. The forged documents were created by the Massad and were passed to Italy for release. Saddam had no centrifuges. Peace
Steve,
Why would Mossad create transparant forgeries? What possible gain could they get from such in-expertly forged documents which weren't even used in the justification for liberating Iraq?
Why does uranium from Niger have to come from the "best mine"? What is wrong with the "second best mine?".
Finally, we are to believe that French politicians who have been bribed to the tune of tens of millions of dollars by Saddam would ensure that Saddam didn't get any uranium out of Niger?
Have you ever been to the real world?
Mark,
We both know it is not hard to get a letter from an officer / enlisted man supporting the position of their boss.
It is much hard to find memebers of the military to disagree with the boss in public.
The best SecDef is one who doesn't loose a man.
-Joe
Joe---wrong thread. Wrong idea, if you can call it that, but also on the wrong thread. Assuming you were trying to say, in typical incoherent Lefty fashiion, that it is your belief that the "best SedDef is one who doesn't LOSE a man.." in other words, one whose term does not include one single loss of life in military conflict---then the kindest thing I could possibly say to you is that you are a total idiot. Any wimpy, tail-between-his-legs, delusional peacenik could qualify, under your bizarre criterion,, as a "best SecDef"---and the SecDefs who protected our country in wars and conflicts and during threats would not qualify.
Scoot on over to relevant posts to learn a little about how being in the military, even achieving rank, does not automatically convey intelligence, comprehension of strategy, or political objectivism. On the contrary, the military is full of out-of-step dinosaurs who are very threatened by the Administration's grasp of the changing face of world-wide conflict---changes which leave the stodgy plodders in the dust. There are also ardent Lefties who are silly enough to be sucked into the All Hate All The Time agenda of the anti-Bushies, and who are willing to parade their stupidity in hopes of impressing a few Joes here and there.
But back to Plame...it has amazed me from Day 1 how Plame's gross incompetence has gotten conveniently ignored by the fawning media who know, simply KNOW, that she was a bold and courageous undercover agent, risking her life. How do they know? Because she TOLD them, silly.
Plame may or may not have been doing an adequate job back in the day, when she really did work undercover. She was brought back to DC when Aldrich Ames blew so many covers, but looking at her performance after she got back I have to wonder if that was just a convenient excuse to get her out of Dodge before she got someone killed. Unless you can believe that she was compentent then, and only became an inept idiot later, you have to wonder if the CIA was thrilled to have an excuse to get her back in DC, in an office job, where she couldn't really do much harm.
Because when she was working in a CIA office, as an analysyt, she and hubby Joe told the whole wide world about it---at least the Beltway world, which is all that mattered to them. Press circles, intelligence circles, social circles, and wherever any of those circles overlapped, Plame's employment with the CIA was common knowledge. Joe listed her in his bio as working for the CIA.
Then she got herself listed, under her own name, in a public data bank as a political contributor, USING HER OWN NAME, and listing, not the CIA, but the fake company she was supposedly working for, as a supposedly secret front. A defender said "of course---that was her cover story"..which would only make sense if no one knew she really worked for the CIA. But all those who did know that---and there were many---would have to wonder why she suddenly claimed two very different employers.
Plame was an idiot, Wilson was an idiot, neither one was ethical or honorable, both were liars, and both set themselves up. The big question is, why are so many so eager to suspend rational thought to accept them as they portray themselves, and not as they so obviously are?
Mark
All clear thinking individuals know that Iraq was seeking Uranium from Niger, the Prime Minister of Niger at the time said they were. You're never going to convince the America hating left, they must ignore any facts that are contrary to their severe case of Bush Derangement Syndrome.
The Niger forgeries were so bad that they were discounted by virtually everyone who looked at them. As Hitchens says, the fake documents appear to have been created specifically to cast doubt on genuine - and incriminating - documents.
Joe Wilson's Mission to Niger seems almost exactly parallel. A fake mission with a pre-ordained verdict: false intel in order to cast doubt on genuine - and incriminating - intel.
It's as if both are products of the same mind, or part of the same counter-intelligence project.
Joe Wilson claimed to have seen and debunked those Niger documents months before they were even in the hands of US intelligence. In fact, Joe Wilson should never have seen those documents at all. If he did see them, he would have to have seen them while they were being prepared.
Most likely, he's simply a self-aggrandizing liar, and his wife is bad at her job.
Almiranta,
All too typical of CIA operations, though...we hope the new CIA director is making some good changes, but I've been of the view for about 20 years that the CIA should be abolished - this stemming from the surprising knowledge that when CIA was first set up, the FBI wasn't allowed to do background checks...and given that CIA was set up with a very large number of former OSS agents - with the OSS having been riddled with Soviet agents and sympathisers - it just seems certain that the organization started with moles.
These moles would have betrayed confidences, of course - but in addition to that they would have recruited, hired and promoted other moles, and when they couldn't do that, they' work to see that the least competant people rose to the top. Bottom line, I just don't trust it as an institution - abolish it, carefully screen the members who wish to continue government employment and those who pass a rigorous background check plus competancy testing can go into State and Defense intelligence agencies.
CJ,
I wonder, though...I wish I had the resources to really chck in to Wilson's activities from Niger Trip to NY Times Opinion Piece: who did he talk to? When? Why?
I smell a large rat in all this.
Now that you've again tried to breathe life into the old Niger/uranium/Iraq rumors, do any of you have anything that might be considered evidence...as opposed to speculation? You use a lot of words in the piece, but add nothing that wasn't known years ago. Give it up unless you can come up with the goods. It just makes the neos look sillier and more desparate.
Rob,
The goods are there - only willful blindness on your part prevents you from acknowledging them...Saddam's nuke guy went to Niger. There is no reason for anyone to go to Niger unless they want uranium. Ergo, Saddam sought uranium in Niger.
Wilson is a liar, Plame is a fool - and only dunces on the left can't see this.
Mark
Doesn't it get boring having to prove the same thing over and over again? I suppose far left wing fanatics like Rob never bothered to read the Butler report or the Senate committee report which are both quoted here.
The "rat" as you put it, is the fact that Plame was responsible for gathering intelligence on the Iranian nuclear program. That was her job with the CIA. Cheney's leak folded that tent. What are our capibilities for gathering intelligence in Iran today? All roads lead to Rome. Peace
CJ,
Have to keep hammering away at it...these Big Lie people would run everything if we didn't keep calling them on it...