"Maybe I'm just not seeing it - but either leaving your wife to go have sex with a man is wrong, or it isn't...if its wrong, then the man shouldn't be made a Bishop."

St. Augustine did plenty wrong before he had his conversion in the garden. There many other examples of church leaders who sinned in their early life (Paul for example). Should they not have been allowed to be a saints?

Tom, both examples you cited repented of their past sins before they became ministers to the Lord. Eugene Robinson is actively practicing and unrepentant of the actions that have split the Episcopal church. Hence the article is right on point.

"Maybe I'm just not seeing it - but either leaving your wife to go have sex with a man is wrong, or it isn't..."

Either way, it makes you wonder if the guy the bishop left his wife for was bald with saggy shoulder blades and a hairy butt.

You're right Joelist. I misread the article.

Do you think Christ was a homophobe? Clearly not. Peace

Tom,

Yep - it isn't the homosexuality which is at issue, but the concept of ordaining a man to look after morals who couldn't even keep his holy vow to his wife...

He can be the gayest man who ever lived, but once he gave his word to God and his wife that he'd stick by her to the end, then all that homosexuality just went out the window...he had no choice, at that point, as to what sort of life he was going to live.

Yep - it isn't the homosexuality which is at issue, but the concept of ordaining a man to look after morals who couldn't even keep his holy vow to his wife...

There's no blanket ban on divorcees becoming priests. Ergo, Robinson's divorce is neither here nor there.

"Do you think Christ was a homophobe? Clearly not. Peace"

Ah, so you admit that homos are sinners in need of saving?

Deleted - Off Topic

I got one even better.......WHO CARES! The whole image that eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love....ummm. But that's the message we're brought up with, isn't it? Believe or die! Wow, thank you, forgiving Lord, for all those options.

Mark as a practicing Catholic can answer better than I, but both the Catholic and Episcopal churches were wrong for allowing individuals who were unrepentently committing sins to remain in ministry. Just as Eugene Robinson should have lost his minister's papers in the Episcopal Church when he did what he did, so too should the pedophile priests have been defrocked for what they did.

On a different note, the "message we're all brought up with" is not necessarily the Gospel message. The Gospel message is that all are resurrected, some to reward and others to judgement based on their acceptance (on God's terms not ours) of the sacrifice of Jesus to take the punishment we deserve.

I'm not going to argue points of Christianity nor correct the egregious errors in a couple of the above comments, but I thought I'd add one additional fact brought on by Mark's post. The Episcopalian church currently is in turmoil in regards to membership and there is a growing split in that membership. It has been widely reported and details are easily found on the web. Mark's post highlights one of the major reasons why this ongoing split is occurring.

The Christian Faith in all it's forms is waning in the Western World.

Soon, Christendom will take a place on the hsitorical bookshelf next to Egyptian, Greek and Roman mythology. And studies as such.

Rights for gays are the rights for all citizens to determine their own destiny.

Wade

It seems that the Episcopal Church is split over doctrine. This happens all the time in religion. Didn’t Martin Luther form the Lutherans because he thought the pope was the devil? Anyway, let then sort it out.

Barney,
No, Martin Luther didn't think the Pope was the devil; it was a fight for the gospel. Luther even stated that he would have happily yielded every point of dispute to the Pope, if only the Pope had affirmed the gospel.

Martin Luther's criticism of the Church initially was that the Church was sending the wrong message, that the Church was ... giving to people the sense that they could save themselves by using the various things the Church offered, including indulgences. And the proper message was: No, you couldn't do that. In order to be saved, you had to leave it to Christ, and you had to simply cling to what Christ had done for you. That was his original complaint with the Church. But when the Church did not listen, he came reluctantly to the conclusion that the Church, especially the office of the papacy, was the Antichrist, and that what it was doing was deliberate. It was the devil's attempt to subvert, to submerge the good news, the gospel. The devil was working within the Church. And once he was convinced that that was happening, the papal office was the office of the Antichrist, and he saw the end time near. .

See the Lutherans are, or at least founded, as an end of days cult.

The above comment/quote was lifted from the PBS documentary on religion.

If Christ is Peace the anti-Christ is war. Peace

*Shrugs*

People wonder why I'm not a big fan of organized religion. Yes, every religion has thier good points and bad, but in the end I think every religion is a personal thing. Who needs a big church when you "take God into your heart?"

Yes, getting together is good to strengthen one another's faith and to help spread the word, but why do you need all the red tape? I've never understood the Catholic Church and I don't think I ever will.

Gozer,

Read "Mere Christianity", if you haven't thus far in your life...that should explain everything for you...and Lewis wasn't Catholic.

Barney,

Yeah, and PBS documentaries on religion are always accurate and never have a secularist axe to grind...

IIS,

But that is complete freedom - believe it, or die...belief is quite easy; you know?

What in the end are you being asked to do? Honor God rather mammon; think of others before self; don't lie; don't steal...not exactly a burdensome set of rules...

Joelist,

There was a gigantic failure in the clergy and the laity vis a vis the Catholic Church...we all failed; we allowed in to ministry people who should not have been allowed in, and then we weren't vigorous in getting them out when their failures became known.

This is being corrected.

As for the Episcopals - I can't see much point in a religion if the sacred vows of marriage are to be tossed aside for mere sexual reasons by the clergy. Why go to Church on Sunday? For a social? The Church, in all of its forms, is supposed to instruct in right conduct, not condone wrong conduct.

Touched a soft spot, eh Mark?

Mere Christianity eh? I'll ask around I think some of my friends have that one. As for the Cathlic Church comment that was just an end to my thought process. It had no bearing on the original topic, I just never understood the Cathlic Church and all of it's leadership. That's just me though. :)

Ash,

Nope, you just didn't relate to the topic at hand...we're not going to allow this conversation to disintegrate into a conversation about something other than the subject.

Yeah, and PBS documentaries on religion are always accurate and never have a secularist axe to grind...
Posted by: Mark Noonan

Mark, the bit about ML I heard on the History channel last night. It was a special on the apocalypse. I used the PBS quote because that is what came up first on google search, so now I have two sources to back up my statement. Do you have any that contradicts mine?

The only decent post here is Bret's. Religion is supposed to be an individuals choice; so the libs of course dispute that and call names. Like Bret says, it does boil down to whether the man's new househusband was bald, stooped, and was hairy all over. I Googled to find a pic, but none could be found. You would think he would have showed up at the induction ceremony. I did run across a news story that says the good Bishop got out of alcohol rehab in early March. Anybody wanna bet that stems from who had control of the remote.

The problems of the Episcopal Church are simply explained in Matthew 15:9:

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

BTW: The same may be said of worship on sunday since it certainly isn't the creation 7th day Sabbath from Genesis 2:2,3, nor is it the day of worship we are called to remember in the 4th Commandment from Exodus 20:8-11. In fact there is no scriptural basis for Sunday worship. It was changed by the Catholic Church in 364 AD, to demonstrate their power, and to separate them from Judiasm.

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Well my conversation went to your credibility. Or hypocricy, to wit, casting dispersion on another religion, while seeming to defend a much more egregious act by your own.

But it's your blog and your decision, and of course I will defer to that graciously.

Barney wrote, (to divert attention from the original post)"Do you have any that contradicts mine?"

Yep, your words; at the end of his life he reluctantly came to believe that the devil was working through the Church, and that the office of the pontiff was the antichrist. The antichrist “ape of Christ” comes by the power of the devil, yet the antichrist is a man.

Your words; “Didn’t Martin Luther form the Lutherans because he thought the pope was the devil?” Uh, still no.

Next, Luther didn’t “form the Lutherans” that was the name, a pejorative that the enemies of Luther hung on his followers, mostly in Germany.

And yes, when you base your theories on PBS specials, and Google searches your conclusions summed up by someone with the attention span of a greeting card are likely to be a bit oversimplified.

Alright, I'm missing something. Can anyone tell me where Mark or any other Catholic has defended the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. I must have missed that thread.

CeCe,

It was on the thread where I also admitted that I get my instructions via a Mossad microchip implanted in my brain by agents of Halliburton...

I knew it!!!! Cheney, Bushitler, Carl Rove, that brilliant bastard (hope I'm not violating the rules), they have their tentacles *everywhere*!!:)