If they end the guest worker program, Barney can find work picking lettuce. That requires no college education, which was denied Barney because he wanted the government to pay for it.

Get your basket, Barney--the lettuce fields await you...

The question that shows how idiotic any of these guest worker provisions are, is what will the US do if the "guest worker" doesn't abide by the rules?

If they don't pay the fines, if they don't get proper documentation (they didn't bother the first time after all), if they don't follow the rules, where is the enforcement proviso that deals with it?

There isn't any. Imagine the sad stories we will hear when Pedro or Sean is facing deportation for shoplifting a small item. And when these people whine that they can't pay the fine, how many little babies will be thrust at the camera, as we all told the government wants to take away its food?

It's all a joke.

reagan was good.

reagan granted amnesty.

ergo, amnesty is good.

logic refresher in case u blew-off geometry.

I agree. It is time to drain the swamp. Start cutting off employment and welfare first, deny drivers licenses and other privileges of citizenship. Stop enabling illegals. There are many reasons to close the borders and stop illegal entry. Latinos aren't the only group to focus on. How about ending any immigration of Muslims. Who needs another Europe? Lets start protecting our country and stop giving it away.

We can only pray the guest worker if at all is watered down and Border security is firmly put in. Let's put the guard down there for 6 months to start with Now, Today!

Traverse, wrote: Who needs another Europe?

I seem to recall that EU and Arabian countries such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have established guest worker programs, so after witnessing the riots in France last summer, GWB thought a guest worker program would be good for the US?

As an aside, while scrolling through the comment sections I have noticed several comments directed towards me. I am glad that so many are moved by my insight. I have a suggestion, maybe you (Matt) should rename the blog to “Blogs for Barney”.

For actually enlightened commentary (not the usual drivel) go read

Today's Immigration Battle - Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind) by Thom Hartmann

The corporatist Republicans ("amnesty!") are fighting with the racist Republicans ("fence!"), and it provides an opportunity for progressives to step forward with a clear solution to the immigration problem facing America.

Both the corporatists and the racists are fond of the mantra, "There are some jobs Americans won't do." It's a lie.

Americans will do virtually any job if they're paid a decent wage. This isn't about immigration - it's about economics. Industry and agriculture won't collapse without illegal labor, but the middle class is being crushed by it.

The reason why thirty years ago United Farm Workers' Union (UFW) founder Caesar Chávez fought against illegal immigration, and the UFW turned in illegals during his tenure as president, was because Chávez, like progressives since the 1870s, understood the simple reality that labor rises and falls in price as a function of availability.

more but worth it
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

the jim crow "laws" produced "illegals" until overturned by an "activist" judiciary.

so, applying the "don't reward illegals" argument, blacks in violation of jim crow remained retroactively "illegal" despite the "law" being overturned.

this line of argument is illogical due to the false assumption that "laws" are forever static once enacted. this renders any conclusions therein false.

"Nothing is quite so galling as having foreigners demonstrating in your country and essentially spitting on your flag."

While I am against open borders and unearned amnesty, I think you misread their actions Mark. Their intention was to demonstrate how many of them there are, and to force us to evaluate how important they are to our economy. Why would they "spit" on the flag of a country that they risked life and limb to come to?

I'm not an economist, but it seems common sense to realize you will be paying a lot more for a head of lettuce if growers are forced to pay a living wage that American workers would demand to do that backbreaking work.

Thoughts from the brilliant Mexican-American writer Luis Urrea (The Devils Highway, highly reccomended):

The borders should be closed. To deal with the 11 million illegals already here, they should be allowed to earn the right to stay in this country. A system requiring a clean working record. They have to learn English. They should learn about American history. Of course a clean criminal record. After a determined period of time- maybe 5 years or so- if they meet all these requirments, they could become American citizens.

I paraphrased his thoughts, but does anyone here disagree with this philosophy?

And....draining the swamp reeks with racism.

Jacob: This is my favorite quote from the Thom Hartmann article on Common Dreams:

"If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways"

Mark,
As I've said before, almost everyone agrees that something must be done about the illegal immigration issue. The hard part is deciding exactly what to do. You yourself, Mark, seem to flip-flop on many details. Is it really true that a tipping point for you was seeing too many Mexican flags? Did you notice the American ones? There seemed to me to be at least as many of those as there were Mexican ones. Especially in Chicago. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if a Mexican-American family, or some other kind of group, is going to a demonstration of that sort they would bring both their Mexican flags and their American flags as a symbol of the dual heritage which they have either achieved or to which they aspire. To blame them for that seems a tad trivial to me, but whatever floats your boat.

Anyway, I would guess that many, many people have real difficulty wrapping their heads around the issue. I certainly do. For that reason the issue has the potential to be incredibly divisive. And since the Republicans hold all the levers, it also stands to reason that that's where the divisions will be most damaging. In the mean time, all the donks have to do is line up on the more lenient side of the issue and let the Republicans have at it. I truly fear that we have handed the donks an issue they can rally around and look united. Like I said before, this issue shouldn't have been brought up in such a crucial election year. Not formally anyway. However it is eventually decided, the more draconian the conditions are the more the (legal) immigrant vote will be upset, not to mention the left and the moderates. Likewise, the more lenient the conditions are the more the right will be upset. It's a no-win issue.

Then of course there are all kinds of economic issues involved, as some of you have pointed out.

Rico,
There is an undeniable visceral reaction to seeing the flag of another country waved while the flag of this country is debased.

Here in Southern California we’ve been bombarded with the images of the American flag being used as a gag, burned in the streets, tied around the wrists while the Mexican flag is waved proudly throughout the demonstrations. Montebello High School raised the Mexican flag with the American flag below it and upside down.

In my town, outside of my office a large demonstration was held by students protesting the Europeans “stealing Atzlan” from the indigenous Mexicans. (As absurd as that is.) Not an American flag was in sight except the large one the protestors used to step on.

I have no respect for this kind of “duel heritage.”

Bane,
I didn't know any of that. That's disgusting, and they should be thoroughly ashamed. It's one thing to try to help people who want to help themselves. It's quite another to bend over backwards for ingrates. I pray we will find a way to distinguish between the two.

If we grant amnesty or guest worker programs to 11 million illegals, then what's going to stop 11 million more coming through the borders. How would we keep track with the compliance of registering?

Rico,
Agreed, I hope Mr. Bush's call for calm discourse and agreeable demeanor is eventually respected.
I personally believe this is just another phase in immigration in this country; all the same things were said when the Irish came to this country by the hundreds of thousands, and the Germans, and the Poles, and the Vietnamese etc etc. We just need to find the common ground without all the vitriol, but … it’s hard to do with the ingrates distracting the debate.
I mentioned before Prop 187 here in California (denying illegal aliens certain services), doomed to defeat, Jack Kemp and Bob Dole came to the State to campaign against it. Then came the Mexican flag waving, the speeches in Spanish, the assaults on our generosity and viola … we passed a clearly un-Constitutional proposition. The Republican party has been paying for that mistake ever since.

Ash,

I would gladly pay 300% more for a head of lettuce in exchange for my children's classrooms being less crowded. I would gladly pay more to have my grass cut in exchange for emergency rooms being used for their originally intended purposes and not free clinics. I would gladly pay more to have my house cleaned in exchange for a closed border that actually stood a chance of preventing terrorists from entering any time they please.

When you truly look at the cost/benefit it is a no brainer. Oh, and by the way, I would feel the same way if the illegals were of Canadian, Scottish, English, African or German ethnicity. This has NOTHING to do with racism and everything to do with law, order and relieving the strain on our social services.

This also has nothing to do with LEGAL immigration.

Ricorun,

It was that flag at the Montebello school which flipped me - I was initially furious, though prayer has helped me to calm down about it...these are still my brothers and sisters, but they are doing a very, very wrong thing...

They are in our house, and our house lives under and honors the American flag - any disrespect for it is an insult to every American who honors it, and most especially every American who has died under it, fighting for liberty. I wasn't demanding that they be super-patriots...but a little respect would have gone a long way.

As it is, their amazing lack of respect is indicative of an attitude - and attitude of contempt for the United States, probably brought about by our not enforcing our own laws as regards immigration.

So, I've changed - I still want a guest worker program, but first I want that border fence and I want us to at least make a stab at deporting all 11 million illegals in the country - and I don't care if they are married to citizens or have children born here...there spouses and children can stay, if they like, but the illegals must all go home, be confronted with an inpenetrable wall, and then apply for legal admittance.

Ash said, This is my favorite quote from the Thom Hartmann article on Common Dreams:
"If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways"

Glad you read it Ash. Hartmann is about as progressive as you can get and clear eyed about this. It's no wonder those of us on the right and left find it difficult to get our hearts and minds around this issue.

Ash,

Perhaps if we didn't have the illegals then American cleverness would result in a more efficient, less labor-intensive means of harvesting lettuce?

At any rate, the higher wages paid to legal immigrants of full citizens would result in greater consumer spending in the US, thus raising the general prosperity to compensate for a higher price on things like lettuce - and that is another thing we should keep in mind, tens of billions of dollars earned by the illegals here in the US aren't spent here...they are sent right down to Mexico where they prop up the corrupt political/economic system of that country. Legal immigrants would be more likely to spend it here, rather than send it home.

a little respect would have gone a long way.

Says the guy who repeatedly refers to the Mexican flag as a "dishrag."

Aren't the economic arguments for keeping this "cheap labor pool" similar to the economic arguments D4emocrats used to defend slavery? And, since we plan to intitutionalize this low pay - isn't the practise very similar to slavery?

"The invention of the cotton gin made the cultivation of cotton on large plantations using slave labor a profitable enterprise in the deep South. The slave became an ever more important element of the southern economy, and so the debate about slavery, for the southerner, gradually evolved into an economically based question of money and power, and ceased to be a theoretical or ideological issue at all. It became an institution that southerners felt bound to protect."

source - http://www.swcivilwar.com/cw_causes.html

GOP 4 ME and Ann:

It's quite possible I didn't make myself clear, or am not reading your responses correctly.

I favor closing off the border. I am against amnesty. I would allow the 11 million immigrants already in this country to earn citizenship.

Closing off the border and enforcing laws should counter your fear that 11 million more wouldn't come into this country.

Sees,

Please find me using that term PRIOR to the disgusting way the demonstrators desecrated our flag...

Cause, affect...its something that happens, you know?

Perhaps if we didn't have the illegals then American cleverness would result in a more efficient, less labor-intensive means of harvesting lettuce?

Agreed Mark. And I think it is a goal we should strive for. I am afraid we are not "making" anything anymore.

And (and I know you won't agree with this) illegals are weakening the unions and therefore the middle class. Along with cleverness, we are a great country because we have a middle class.

Ash,

I've been thinking on the 11 million here - and I think I've come up with a very fair solution...I don't have time to write it up, but I'll have it on the blog later tonight or early tomorrow AM.

I have always felt very strongly about protecting our borders and also have felt some modicum of sympathy for illegal Mexican immigrants until yesterday. I was driving to work in Fairfield, California (less than an hour east of San Francisco) and while driving downtown, I saw police cars with their lights flashing. "Must be an accident," I thought, but no -- it was a long line of Hispanic kids - high school kids -- walking on the sidewalk (they had walked out of school) carrying big Mexican flags and signs saying "Viva Mexico." For the first time I felt angry - very angry. I almost rolled down my window and yelled at them -- "If Mexico is so great - why don't you go back there!!" Then I found out about the "reconquista" movement -- Mexicans wanting to take back California as their own. I kept thinking -- "What country do they think they're in?!" Well, they think they're in Mexico!!! -- and that they have rights here because this is their country. Not only is this wrong, it is LOCO -- very stupid ... and sure to backfire with most Americans that have had any sympathy for them -- up until now!

Sees,
Please find me using that term PRIOR to the disgusting way the demonstrators desecrated our flag...

Cause, affect...its something that happens, you know?

So the protesters made you call their flag a dishrag? Is this supposed to be indicative of the "mature, responsible, grown-up" GOP? How old are you, five?

Sees,

No, but an example of perfectly justified outrage...which has now passed, but their flag is still a dish rag...I've no more respect for it than I do a bed sheet...

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but every mention in this thread concerning reprehensible behavior seems to predominantly involve high school kids. Is that accurate?

The final bill will be constructed around a concern for whether illegal aliens vote, how soon, and for whom. I think it is a big mistake for the GOP to be concerned about courting the latino vote. They won't get it, no matter what. They would do better to appear both wise and attentive to their base, educating people on why radical, absolutely strict approaches are not realistic.

I think a guest worker provision is an essential, realistic part of any solution, but it shouldn't be dignified simply because another option is unrealistic. The notion of paying back taxes is both silly and counterproductive. How would anyone ever know what amount to assign to back taxes. That and any other penalty is a disincentive to cooperate with the program. All that is needed is for these people to step forward and identify themselves and make that the only way they can retain or obtain a job. The real onus is on employers and day laborer crew contractors.

What hasn't been discussed yet is that EVERY EMPLOYED PERSON IN THE US is going to have to prove their citizenship and the validity of their identification documents. It doesn't apply just to people who look like Mexicans.