What truly sucks (no nice way to put it) in this whole debate is that the GOP knows that they have the base over a barrel. We certainly won't vote for Dems, but, if, in protest, we vote for a 3rd party candidate or just do not vote, we are handing the Congress back to the Defeatocrats. Which means high taxes, massive socialist programs, impeachment idiocy, cutting and running from Iraq, and a weakening of national security. So, can we afford to not vote for the rascals we know?

I like the House bill. What we need and what we've needed for a long time are some conservatives in the Senate. I favor locking down the border and deporting the 10 to 12 million ILLEGALS that are here.

continued related yet random thoughts from an indie in Ohio -

1) As any vet can tell u, any effective barrier MUST be fully on our side & BOTH sides MUST be patrolled.

1A) The Lockheed prototype blimp, being built here in Akron for Homeland Security is an ideal, low cost, high loiter, sensor & detection platform.

2) ~20 MILLION "illegals" cannot be rounded-up, detained, deported or any other such nonsense. Plus their children born here are citizens so deporting mom & dad is plain stupid.

3) If these working "illegals" had taxes witheld they ARE supporting our communities & govt.

3A) KEYPOINT - these folks come here to work & I'd rather we have MORE religious, working families w moms & dads - not fewer. God knows we suffer enough who aren't.

4) AMERICANS WILL NOT DO SOME OF THESE STOOP-LABOUR JOBS FILLED BY HISPANICS.

5) Whites will be a minority in a few decades, maybe sooner - get used to it.

6) Part of the "get tough" approach sounds racist to me.

7) And, how much are you willing to pay for that head of lettuce?

Thanks 4 ur consideration.

"Part of the "get tough" approach sounds racist to me."

Why is it racist to follow The Law? Those people are here illegally. Check the definition in the dictionary. I'll wait.

Perhaps it is an illusion to think that we could deport even an 1/8 of the illegals. But there is no way that we should excuse this behavior.

Ohio,

I'm not tech savvy enough for it, but we will eventually get up the pic of the Mexican flag flying ABOVE and upside-down American flag at one of the schools in Los Angeles....

I've done with these immigrants - if they love that Mexican flag that much, then can get the heck out and go live under their dish rag...

You know I think I've noticed something different. I don't think liberals hate true conservatives or even dislike them, they merely disagree. But it seems as though you loathe the other side. You constantly call them names, belittle their efforts, and never ever compliment them on anything. I have no problem admitting lots of things conservatives do right, and still hate many of the things they do, but I don't think they are less of people and have less validity than anyone else, and I think thats the difference. It doesn't matter who it is, it doesn't matter how much education they have, every single time I read anything with the word liberal or democrat in it it is heavily negative and vicious in nature. I fear we have passed the point where discussion will prevail.

Before American's allow the liberals left to push them and America into a taxpayer funded MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR MISTAKE... THINK!

First, I am not opposed to immigrants.

Today's legal immigrants are among the hardest working Americans you will find. Yes, I say Americans. Most come here to become Americans and do. They probably know more about American history, government, and politics than today's average high school or college graduate!

They come legally from countries all around the world. They are self motivated. They know what it means to work and earn their living. They start their own businesses and work long, hard, and tiring days to make their business grow and achieve a small portion of the American dream. Their families work with them to achieve their dream. They pay taxes. They vote -- legally! They learn English, even if it isn't perfect, but it's a thousand percent better than I can speak their native language. I see them every day, working hard and I am very pleased to have them as Americans!

Having said that, here are just a few issues that MUST be addressed before America open's it door to a flood of "guest workers"...

RE: "20 MILLION "illegals" cannot be rounded-up, detained, deported or any other such nonsense."

And your solution is to allow all of those to remain here legally and open the doors to another 20 million? Wrong!

RE: "Plus their children born here are citizens so deporting mom & dad is plain stupid."

And just what happens when we allow more millions of "immigrant guest workers" to come to America? They have even more children so we can't deport them or make them go home when their time's up? Wrong! And what happens when they then bring the rest of their family to America... locked into America because of child who was born here to an illegal alien?

If we allow more "guest workers" here, then maybe we need to change the laws so that any children born here are not automatically U.S. citizens. As for those here, maybe the solution is to allow foster parents to adopt them if their parents don't want to take them back home with them when they are deported! Harsh words? Maybe, but American's have to take a stand somewhere or let the illegals have this country and we can move to theirs!

RE: "What we need and what we've needed for a long time are some conservatives in the Senate."

Agree! We need more conservatives, not some of the liberal Republicans who are in reality liberal Democrats, the RINOs! We also need to elect and support some strong conservatives who will take on the press and the Democrats daily, and forcefully, who will talk to the American public daily and educate them to the real facts -- not just waiting until the conservatives or Republicans have been forced into a corner from all of the negative and false media propaganda. Republicans should learn some of the Democratic brain washing techniques, like repeating their lies and propaganda over and over and over until the Americans finally begin to it as facts! Even if the Republicans don't choose to use the tactics themselves, they might learn how to fight against it!

RE: "If these working "illegals" had taxes withheld they ARE supporting our communities & govt."

ABSOLUTELY WRONG!

The "illegal workers" whom liberals want to convert overnight to "guest workers" are the ones who perform the low paid, menial jobs that Americans are too lazy or unwilling to do. Most are minimum wage. Once they get here legally, they and their families will likely qualify for welfare at the taxpayer's expense, and the liberals will make sure they know how to use the system.

No longer will they be able to "live and still save" at those minimum wage jobs. The will bring their family members who will also qualify for welfare. They will need new Spanish speaking schools and interpreters, which will increase school taxes. They likely won't have health insurance and will use our hospitals, emergency rooms, clinics, and medical facilities, perhaps requiring others to be built to handle their needs -- with the American taxpayer picking up the bill.

Who is going to pay for ALL of these "guest worker" needs which they can't afford with their minimum wage jobs?

The AMERICAN TAXPAYER will be stuck with the bill... and ever increasing one at that!!!
RE: "Part of the 'get tough' approach sounds racist to me."

The typical liberal smokescreen and diversion to any issue they don't want fixed. One of the usual liberal tactics is to label anyone who is against their ideas as racist, bigoted, insensitive, uncaring, prejudiced, etc., etc., etc.!

Ignore it! Forget it! Get over it! A liberal is a liberal is a liberal and their tactics will not change no matter what you do or say!

RE: "And, how much are you willing to pay for that head of lettuce?"

Not the billions that it may cost... that's for sure!

Once these illegals are here as "guest workers" the unions will want to unionize them. Liberals will insist that they can't live on the wages they used to live on. They will need health insurance, possibly taxpayer subsidized. They will need medical treatment. Many or most will qualify for welfare. We will need a bigger bureaucracy to handle them.

Who will pay for all of these "costs"? YOU... the AMERICAN TAXPAYER will pay, and pay, and pay!

How much will that head of lettuce cost? There's no telling, but it won't be cheap!!!

If hundreds of thousands of "illegal immigrants" can march for "rights", just imagine what will happen with 20 million more here legally!

They will go on strike for higher wages, and after being here for a period of time, and learning the in's and out's of our welfare system, they likely won't work either. Where will we get the next "wave" of "guest workers" to do the work they will no longer do?

Look to Europe and especially France if you want to see what happens when a country allows immigrants in without any controls. Look at their social problems, social unrest, and rioting. Look at their high unemployment. Look at their lower productivity.

Let's make sure the American people aren't railroaded into a very bad decision without understand all of the issues, ramifications, and actions necessary to solve them! We don't need to do something really dumb.

There are many more issues to discuss, but this is getting long so I'll save others for later!

AAR

Personally I'm in favor of building a fence on the border then giving those inside America amnesty. I don't quite understand the argument by those who are against amnesty. You worry that it will encourage more illegal immigration? Well that wont happen when you got a fence on the border.

So. Fence first, then amnesty

"I don't think liberals hate true conservatives or even dislike them, they merely disagree"

There are some conservatives who hates liberals, just as there are some liberals who hate conservatives. Its rubbish to say its all one sided. There are bigots on both sides. Yes! On the liberals side as well. Probably more so, than on the conservative side

Wouldn't dropping the hispanic vote 'to say 25%' deliver states like New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada firmly to Democrats?

First,

Here's what the immigration debate boils down to.

Who gets to decide the number, and manner by which this country accepts new immigrants? The citizens of this country, or a group of people who have come illegally, and all the millions of others who may come and demand rights here?

I would argue that Americans get to decide what our immigration policy looks like.

Second,

It is extremely shameful and telling that those who support amnesty, extended rights for illegals etc., call people like me "racist" or "xenophobic." This only shows that they themselves view this a battle of the races.

What is "racist" or "xenophobic" about insisting that American citizens get to decide how many people live here, not illegals.

Paul

Shawn,

I don't think so - in 2000, I don't think we scored much more than 25% of the hispanic vote and we carried AZ and NV, and only barely lose NM - and that likely due to voter fraud. Meanwhile, a full blooded campaign to bring control of our borders would excite some millions of people who thus far don't vote for either Party...I think we could end up carrying California on a campaign to enforce the borders...what really kills us there, after all, is that the GOP just doesn't turn up on election day...

Mark, you're assuming that just because you see the Mexican flag on television during these marches it means they prefer Mexico to USA. You couldn't be more wrong. A lot of these people who come over the border to find new jobs here are ashamed of what their country's government has become and are happy with the opportunities that they get here. It really says a lot about the Mexican economy when a person making barely minimum wage here in the US is more than they'll make in their home country.

As for deporting all the millions of illegals, get real. Those estimated 10 milion illegals are not going to be all rounded up and taken back to the border without some mindboggling logistics. As for a fence, people will simply find other ways around and beyond them. How about letting a visa expire? Digging underground paths? Climbing over the mountains?

You constantly call them names, belittle their efforts, and never ever compliment them on anything. I have no problem admitting lots of things conservatives do right, and still hate many of the things they do, but I don't think they are less of people and have less validity than anyone else, and I think thats the difference. It doesn't matter who it is, it doesn't matter how much education they have, every single time I read anything with the word liberal or democrat in it it is heavily negative and vicious in nature.

With today's news that the House may allow a guest worker provision in the new Immegration bill. I like the already passed House bill. What we need and what we've needed for a long time are some conservatives in the Senate. I favor locking down the border and deporting the 10 to 12 million ILLEGALS that are here.

DH,

I agree; although, I don't know how or what it would take to totally secure our borders.

I'm sure you read my post earlier in this thread about some of the issues and questions that must be answered before a "guest worker" program could even be considered, and until then they are illegal -- not "undocumented workers", "undocumented immigrants", "undocumented guests", or whatever other misleading name the liberals want to call them to cloud the issue with the American public.

I don't think the American people understand the magnitude of the problems and costs that the American taxpayer will be forced to bear if we just open our borders to a flood of immigrants -- whether they are "illegal" or "guest workers"!

We can't even keep out the illegal aliens (immigrants, workers, or whatever) now. Giving them amnesty by calling it a "guest worker" program won't change that. Those millions will remain here, and millions more will come across illegally after that. If they don't obey our laws now, the millions who can't qualify for a "guest worker" surely won't later. How many millions and millions of illegal foreigners have to come across our borders before the American public learns that the liberal way is not going to cut it!

Who knows how many tens of billions or perhaps hundreds of billions of dollars in welfare and other government programs the American taxpayer will be stuck with because of such a program!

I don't object to a reasonable number coming here as guest workers, but fix the current problem first. Stop those who are coming here illegally and only then decide how many should be permitted in as guest workers.

And before we allow those guest workers in to do the work that Americans won't do, take a real hard look at welfare and make sure every person who can work is working first!

AAR

I don't agree that a firm stance on immigration from Mexico will drive away the Hispanic vote.

First, we have to agree that the only Mexicans who can vote are citizens, which would indicate that they came here legally. And from my experience, those who followed the rules, obeyed the laws, jumped through the hoops, and paid the fees are very ticked off at those who thumbed their noses at the procedures and crowded to the head of the line.

The legal Hispanics I know are pretty united in a couple of things. They are tired of being lumped in with illegals who do not bother to speak our language, who flaunt our laws, and who make all Hispanics look bad. And they resent the fact that these illegals can do all of that with impunity, when they worked so hard to do it the right way.

I say, if we treat illegal immigrants fairly, which is to say arrive at a fair and just penalty for their law-breaking and then let them get in line for the benefits the others have worked for, we are not going to lose the votes of the legal immigrants.

Now, if the Dems have their way, and let anyone in the country vote, citizen or not, providing ballots in Spanish and plenty of translators to make sure no one votes Republican by accident, THEN we have a problem.

steve, YOU may not hate conservatives, but you need to listen to your buddies on the Left. I have never heard or experienced such venom, such hatred, such spite and malice, as I hear directed toward conservatives. Even your leadership, such as it is, openly calls all conservatives mean-spirited, selfish, and nasty. Look at Harry Reid and Howard Dean for examples of Right-bashing---not to mention the daily spitefest on Air America.

I was a liberal, and my experience on that side of the aisle was that liberalim was a short cut to the Higher Moral Ground. If I was a liberal, and against war, for example, then obviously a conservative was FOR war, and I was automatically superior.

I started listening to a local talk radio show, and hated the host because he was so "mean". I cheered when liberals would call in to take him on. But I started to notice some things. The most obvious was that the liberal positions---MY positions---were based on emotion rather than facts and/or logic. The next was that when a liberal was asked a tough question, one which might pin him down to a point or even prove the fallacy of his point, he would not answer. He would usually answer with another question, one which was designed to shift attention away from the point in question. So even though I started out agreeing with the basic premise, I found myself wondering why, if the premise was a good one, the question could not simply be answered.

I think for the most part the rank and file liberals are good, well-intentioned, people. They mean well. I happen to think they substitute a little too much "meaning well" for a little too little research and thought. But I also believe that the leadership is cynical and insincere, because I believe that their life experience has taught them that they are wrong, yet they promote their agendas because it brings them personal gain.

One example: Welfare has proven---PROVEN--to be a failure. It has proven to be demoralizing, to detroy initiative, to sap self-respect. The promotion of welfare has created a separate class of American, one dependent on others and which is, basically, helpless. This in turn has contributed to a sense of entitlement and victimhood which can never be satisfied and which leads to a seething resentment of the rest of society, which can never give enough to overcome the erosion of self-respect and personal dignity and responsibility. Yet the Democratic leadership, in my opinion, callously uses this demographic, nurtures it and manipulates it, to generate votes---votes which keep those Dems in office, in power, and with their own hands in the public pocket.

steve, can you tell me one good reason---good for the country, that is, and not just for the Democratic Party---to allow and encourage non-citizens to vote in this country?

Can you tell me you truly believe that the recent security "leaks" were done with the good of the nation in mind,and not just the chance to get a Gotcha on Bush?

The funny thing is, I think the average liberal is probably an idealist---and I think the average Republican is, too, only I think our leadership still has ideals as well.