you are trying to make Islam seem more irrational and superstitious than Catholicism, which is absurd. comparing relegions in this way is impossible. religious belief is the negation of logic and skepticism. and you are also trying to blame the uproar over the drawings on some aspect of Islamic culture which makes it inferior to Western culture - where after all we have the "freedom to be stupid." the freedom to be stupid extends to the freedom to adopt religious beliefs.

i think your interest in this situation stems from your obvious sympathy with the offended Islamic fundamentalists, hence your attempt to understand what they are so upset about. at the same time, being a good Catholic American, you are apparently uncomfortable sympathizing with Muslims.

andy,

Actually, there are two things motivating me here:

1. Islam needs to learn to live with others.

2. People really shouldn't make offensive drawings about other people's deeply held religious sensibilities, but they are going to do it anyway because they are stupid (or rude, if you prefer).

As for the rest of your anti-religion screed...you might have a point about religion, but one thing you'll have to do before you can controvert any of it is answer these questions:

What does thought weigh? How long is it? How does it react to gravity? To heat?

Answer those, and you might actually be on to something....

I love how you get all up in arms about someone calling Bush a Nazi, but when someone blasphemes against someone's religion, you ask them to thicken their skin.

Christians have done similar things to blasphemers in the past.

Wake up and smell the hypocrisy.

That's mighty cosmic Mr. Noonan, but those are all utterly ridiculous question signifying nothing. When you show disrespect to anyone's religion, including your's, people are offened. Most people aren't moved to violence and the small group that is needs to be restrained, not murdered. Peace

Actually, Islam isn't against making images of people... it's about making images of Muhammad. Islam is against making any type of religious statue or artwork depicting Muhammad because they believe that it will lead to idol worship.

The pictures are implied to be of Muhammad, thus they are offensive to Muslims.

There is a difference between free speech and responsible; let's not yell fire in a theater.

Georgia,

I get upset when I am called a Nazi...that is a person insult.

I also get upset when people insult my religion...but I don't blow people up over it.

Georgia,

No, I think Islam is pretty dead set against any representation of the human form...there might be some variations in there, but pictoral art has been discouraged in Islam for most of its history.

Steve,

No, they are extraordinarily valid questions...anyone who disparages the concept of religion, as Andy did, has to answer them.

You see, the atheist claims he doesn't believe in God because there is no proof that He exists and works in the world...they discount the idea that something unaffected by Nature can have an affect on Nature. The atheist holds that the universe is that which can be measured and seen...you can't measure thought. In Nature, you have zero proof of the existence of thought save by the affects thoughts have - for instance, the fact that I've typed these words is the only indication that you have for my thought existing: you can't weigh it, you don't know how large it is - you don't even know where my thoughts are...and yet here they are, strongly affecting the measurable world.

Similarly, the only proof we have of God is the affect God has upon the world - He can't be seen or measured and we don't know precisely where He is...and yet there He is, affecting the world...easily convincing me and billions of others that He exists...guiding us in our lives, making us into the persons He wants us to be.

The only proof of God is the fact that if He/She didn't exist we'd have to invent Him/Her. Peace

I have no plan to coexist with terrorists. As far as the cartoons are concerned, what is offensive about them? The terrorists themselves say they kill in the name of Allah. The terrorists video themselves in bomb belts with rocket launchers and AKs, and the heads of hostages. I guess someone needs to tell them if they can dish it out they ought to be able to take it.

"Looking at them, the first question which comes to mind: seeing as Islam is opposed to making images of people, there must be no pictures of Mohammed...how this government we have.on earth do they know these are pictures of Mohammed to begin with?"

This is the kind of logic that leads to being ruled by idiots.

Who are we to force Islam to modernize? Do they need to find Jesus and all of their problems will go away?

...how on earth do they know these are pictures of Mohammed to begin with?

Why not just say they are of Hillel when he lived in Babylon? Then they would be happy, right?

"No, I think Islam is pretty dead set against any representation of the human form...there might be some variations in there, but pictoral art has been discouraged in Islam for most of its history."

There are Posters of people all over the muslim world. As well as movies and TV shows. All show the human form.

"and you are also trying to blame the uproar over the drawings on some aspect of Islamic culture which makes it inferior to Western culture - where after all we have the "freedom to be stupid."-andy

Andy, the penalty in Islam for insulting Muhammad really is death. Muhammad had many poets murdered for insulting him. One poet Muhammad had murdered was named Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf. Ka'b wrote poems against Islamic women. Ka'b never physically harmed any Muslim. Muhammad had Ka'b murdered for insulting Islam. From the Hadith Bukhari:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."[...] Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

Other poets who Muhammad had murdered for insulting him and Islam are found here: Answering-islam.org (click "M", then "Muhammad") Scroll down to "Muhammad's treatment of enemies"

"The Murder of Abu `Afak" (click Abu 'Afak's name in the above link)

INTRODUCTION
"After Muhammad arrived in Medina in 622 AD, a number of local people began to dislike him. Many of them were Jews, some were Pagan Arabs. One by one, Muhammad's critics were silenced; some became Muslims, some were murdered, others were driven out of Medina. This paper deals with Muhammad's request to have his men murder a Jewish man named Abu Afak. Abu Afak was a 120 year old man. Afak's crime: he urged his fellow Medinans to leave Muhammad."

'Asma' bint Marwan was a female poet and mother of 5 children. Muhammad had her murdered in her sleep for insulting him. Click her name in the above link:

"The Death of `Asma' Bint Marwan"

Abstract
"In Yathrib (Medina), Muhammad had a number of people killed. One of them was `Asma' bint Marwan. Her crime was that she spoke out against Muhammad for having another man murdered named Abu Afak. In his displeasure towards her, Muhammad asked his followers to murder her as well. She was killed while she slept."

Georgia Frawg,

Islam prohibits pictures of any living being or thing. From the Islamic Hadith Bukhari: USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 647:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

The Prophet said, "The painters of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and it will be said to them, 'Make alive what you have created."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 648:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard the Prophet saying, "Allah said, 'Who are most unjust than those who try to create something like My creation? I challenge them to create even a smallest ant, a wheat grain or a barley grain.' "

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 318:
Narrated Aisha:

(mother of the faithful believers) I bought a cushion with pictures on it. When Allah's Apostle saw it, he kept standing at the door and did not enter the house. I noticed the sign of disgust on his face, so I said, "O Allah's Apostle! I repent to Allah and His Apostle . (Please let me know) what sin I have done." Allah's Apostle said, "What about this cushion?" I replied, "I bought it for you to sit and recline on." Allah's Apostle said, "The painters (i.e. owners) of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection. It will be said to them, 'Put life in what you have created (i.e. painted).' " The Prophet added, "The angels do not enter a house where there are pictures."

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

Mark Noonan,

On the issue of co-existing with Islam. Islam is like Nazism-on-steroids. Asking if we can co-exist with Islam, is like asking if we can co-exist with Nazism. We can't. Why? Because Islam-like Nazism-want to destroy us. Islam is waging a perpetual war with all non-Muslims until Islam reigns supreme over the entire world. That's Allah's teachings. That's the Islamic religion.

Islam cannot be reformed. Even the Pope believes that Islam cannot be reformed-

"Silence That Speaks Volumes"

(LGF)-"On January 6 we noted the rather amazing revelation that the Pope believes Islam is incapable of reform.

But although you could hardly imagine a more newsworthy story, the world’s mainstream media has avoided this subject as if it were radioactive—and in a way, it is. Here’s Diana West on the Silence that speaks volumes:"

"This bombshell dropped out of an early January interview conducted by radio host Hugh Hewitt with Father Joseph D. Fessio, SJ, a friend and former student of the pope. Father Fessio recounted the pope’s words on the key problem facing Islamic reform this way: “In the Islamic tradition, God has given His word to Mohammed, but it’s an eternal word. It’s not Mohammed’s word. It’s there for eternity the way it is. There’s no possibility of adapting it or interpreting it.” Father Fessio continued, elaborating not on how many ratings stars the pope thinks some biopic should get, but rather on the pope’s theological assessment of a historically warring religion with a billion-plus followers, some notorious number of whom are now at war with the West. According to his friend, the pope believes there’s no way to change Islam because there’s no way to reinterpret the Koran — i.e., change Koranic teachings on infidels, women, polygamy, penal codes and other markers of Islamic law — in such a way as to propel Islam into happy coexistence with modernity."

Christians have done similar things to blasphemers in the past.

Gee, Frawg-ass, you finally posted something that is actually true, and it negates the rest of your post. Three words: "in the past." These people have been extremists for centuries, for milleniums. forever.

...let's not yell fire in a theater.

Or in a Danish embassy, unless it's been torched by a group of extremists.

Most people aren't moved to violence and the small group that is needs to be restrained, not murdered. Peace

So that's what we should've done after 9/11, go on over to Afghanistan and restrain all those Taliban and Al-Qaeda folks. How patently idiotic can a human being over the age of 10 be?

There's around a billion, with a b, Muslims in the world. Let's say that their "small group of extremists is represented by one percent of all Muslims. Let's see, one percent of a billion would be...10 million. Gee, suddenly that small group seems rather large.

The only proof of God is the fact that if He/She didn't exist we'd have to invent Him/Her. Peace

The only proof of Steve is the fact that he comes here and posts the rhetoric of a pre-adloescent. Well done, Steve, you're in the running with Frawg-ass, Slippy, and shortz for the title of biggest idiot who trolls on B4B. piss...off

Who are we to force Islam to modernize? Do they need to find Jesus and all of their problems will go away?

We don't want them to modernize, goof--we want them to be tolerant of other human beings. Well done, Frawg-ass, you've regained the lead...

I'm not someone who thinks that Islam needs to be destroyed or defeated. But here's what our Muslim brethren desperately need to understand - Islam is in need of a Reformation. Where is their Martin Luther?

We have a growing cancer in the world. There does not appear to be a rational course to avoid the clash. We can continue to put it off with greater risks, or prepare to take action that will damn us for all time.

Muslim outrage huh. let's do a review

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. More then 3,000 people are murdered. No Muslim outrage. (Actually many Muslims were handing out candies and celebrating)

Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.

Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage

Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

Maybe the problem isn't the rest of the world, maybe the problem are the Muslims

Mr. Noonan

I see you're definitely one of those the-Earth-is-the-center-of-the-universe Christians. You see, the Catholic church forced everyone to believe this until astronomers proved them wrong. The point being that if it can't be explained (yet), then we must attribute it to God. This is a copout.

Science is the new God in our world because it doesn't, by it's very nature, lend itself to such great leaps of logic (naturally, flawed humans sometimes consider themselves scientists and make mistakes).

Your thoughts can absolutely be measured. If one took the time to study how your synapses fire and why, compare it to data involving your environment and breeding, then your thoughts could be measured. Even at a binary level, where everything is taken back to 1s and 0s, measurement of everything is possible. Your thoughts, Godly as you might think, are not inspired works of a heavenly hand. Sorry to disappoint.

Proof of God is all around us? Really? Or are there just some things that are amazing to us and we attach this word 'God' that we have invented to them because we have a need for explanation and labeling?

Georgia,

Who are we? Well, we are Americans who live in the United States of America...and we cannot live in a world with Islamo-fascist tyranny. One or the other will have to go.

What I don't want is a genuine war between civilizations - Freedom1 believes we are already engaged in such and is willing to see that through to its conclusion. I'm still taking the more hopeful view: that change is possible in Islam to make it part of the modern world.

Make no mistake about it, Georgia, either Islam changes, or it gets destroyed - I'd just prefer that it not have to be destroyed.

PurpleJay,

You exhibit an amazing ignorance of religion, Catholicism and history in your post...in fact, for brevity I've never seen complete incorrectness so compactly stated.

No one forced anyone to believe that earth was at the center of the universe - it seemed self-evident and was backed up by the best science of the day: science, by the way, worked out by pagans long before Christianity came along...it took men who were educated in Judeo-Christian, western civilisation to figure out that Ptolomy was wrong.

As it is, I believe in God because I am certain that He exists. For soemone who doesn't believe, this is an impossible thing to describe - eventually, you will believe, and only then will you understand what I just wrote.

But if you wish to believe that God doesn't exist, you'll have to measure thought...not just electrical synapses in the brain, but the actual thought...I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100: what does that look like? How long is it? How wide? What color? It is impossible for you to do so - and you never will be able to do so...

check this out.

i have to agree with PurpleJay on this one.

we can take it down to the fundamental insight of modern physics: everything in the universe is physical, thus everything is measurable. the universe might even be one physical entity. this includes all the mental activity of any individual - and even all mental acitivity of every individual (because this activity happens in the brain, which is a physical system). we don't have the technology nor the theory to measure 'thought' directly right now, but there are thousands of researchers who are measuring aspects of thought: the neural correlates of emotion, forgetting, vision, attention, and even religious experience (this happens in the brain too, i have references if you want).

if you are antecedently convinced that thought cannot be measured, then of course no amount of scienctific evidence will persuade you.

i don't deny that religious experience is psychologically and biologically important. there are studies which show that people who are religious tend to live longer, for example. however, it is impossible, in light of modern science, to hold on to such beliefs as though they were somehow 'true'.

what Muslims and religious people are actually getting offended by is a parody of a representation of a concept in their brains. if you think about it they are offending themselves. this representation is shared by a billion brains, to be sure, which is why it is so powerful. nevertheless, religious beliefs have no reality outside an individual or the community of individuals who share that belief. religious belief is inherently subjective, it can only exist in the minds of individuals.

i think the only way to militate against the negative social and political effects of religious belief is not by a "clash of civilisations" ie Christianity vs Islam, but by moving beyond religion all together. the United States is almost unique in the world in that as its affluence rose, so has the spread of religious beliefs. historically, as nations developed there has been a gradual decline in religious beliefs. the levels of religious superstition in the United States parrallels some
peasant societies (i have references for this too).

That was great, Paul!

You'd think that even far left wing kooks would agree with everyone else on this one. They had no problem with the crucifix in urine called pisschrist or that other piece of "art" with the virgin Mary covered with elephant dung. So why in the world do they have a problem with some cartoons that depict Mohammad? IT's a freakin cartoon. Have liberals completely crossed the aisle and now working for and with al Qaeda? How can anyone explain the lefts stunning hypocrisy?

Noonan-

"You exhibit an amazing ignorance of religion" etc.

Really? It seems the other way around!

Why did Pope Urban VIII, in 1633, order Galileo to stay under house arrest until his death because Galileo published a book that argued for heliocentrism (that the sun was at the center of the universe, instead of the Earth, and therefore Geocentrism).

Why did Martin Luther (though not Catholic, silly enough to be religious)say, about Copernicus, "There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the Earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must invent something special, and the way that he does it must need be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the Earth"?

So many parallels to today, eh Mark? Seems as though throughout history, and even today, religion impedes the natural progress of scientific discovery because of dogma.

You're thinking of a number between 1 and 100? Well, you've made it easier to measure that thought then! It is simply a one or two digit number.

I loved it when Jared Diamond, the eminent physiologist, said bluntly that the reason that priests came about in society, thousands of years ago, after there was a surplus of food and therefore not everyone needed to be a farmer, was to provide spiritual justification for war.

You see Mr. Noonan, war is a horrible thing, and should not be begun for the wrong reasons. Even early man realized that.

Have you bought into the Church's dogma? Bush's dogma?

Spin that.

Where is their Martin Luther?

They have no Martin Luther, Scott. Alas, it is us, in their world, who are in need of reform. But, as our resident academic, Georgia Frawg, reminds us: "it is only a handful of extremists!"

We can continue to put it off with greater risks, or prepare to take action that will damn us for all time.

Greater risks v. eternal damnation, Bob? What action are you referring to that will damn us for all time?

Why did Martin Luther (though not Catholic, silly enough to be religious)

Purple Haze, while your posts are a self-serving attempt to show us how educated you are, the above statement shows your true colors. Silly enough to be religious? I might assert that you're silly enough to think that anyone here, excluding andy, is impressed by your "education."

Andy, same goes for you. Don't you have any Canadian blogs you can participate in? We're honored to have two "highly-educated" pseudo-intellectual kooks contribute; it is a welcome alternative to the mindless, uninformed blather of shortz, Frawg, Steve, and slipgrid. Oh yes, and DeeCee48.

Maybe you can tutor them in the fine art of bullshi**ery that you're so skilled in...

So Freedom1's solution is what? Kill them all and make the world safe for Christians and Jews? Sounds like something the world heard in the 1930's from the Fascists of that day. Peace

"What does thought weigh? How long is it? How does it react to gravity? To heat?"

Mark... I don't think these questions constitute any sort of reliable test for atheist thinking. Being able to answer them would not negate the existence of God, any more than other previous scientific discoveries have. Challenging those who don't believe in God to answer them to prove the validity of their position gives the impression that if there was an answer, their postion would be proven.

All scientific discovery is a gift from God. It does not disprove His existence.

"No one forced anyone to believe that earth was at the center of the universe"

Except for Galileio being excommunicated.

"it seemed self-evident and was backed up by the best science of the day: science, by the way, worked out by pagans long before Christianity came along...it took men who were educated in Judeo-Christian, western civilisation to figure out that Ptolomy was wrong."

And to first be hounded for saying that. Eppur si muove!

i forgot that one of the hallmarks of the right-wing is hostility to intellectual debate. this strikes me as oddly similiar to the subject of this thread - i thought Muslims were the ones who were supposed to be against rational debate.

keefer: what i write is not bull----. i welcome you to look up and check everything - but that might require that you enroll in a university (a university is usually a large collection of buildings where people go to things called lectures). calling things you don't understand bull---- is, besides being another hallmark of religious and political fanatics, intellectually lazy.

i forgot that one of the hallmarks of the right-wing is hostility to intellectual debate. this strikes me as oddly similiar to the subject of this thread - i thought Muslims were the ones who were supposed to be against rational debate.

keefer: what i write is not bull----. i welcome you to look up and check everything - but that might require that you enroll in a university (a university is usually a large collection of buildings where people go to things called lectures). calling things you don't understand bull---- is, besides being another hallmark of religious and political fanatics, intellectually lazy.

Purple,

And did you know that Pope Urban VIII was an astronomer and scientist in his own right? Indeed, he was a member of the same scientific society as Galileo - and as a good friend of Galileo gave permission for Galileo to publish his findings...the only proviso was that Galileo had to be fair to both sides of the debate. While it seems a self-evident thing to us today that the earth revolves around the sun, it wasn't obvious in the early 17th century...and even Tycho Brahe, the very famous Dutch astronomer, put together alternate, geocentric theories to account for what Galileo had seen. Galileo didn't do as promised - he proclaimed his helio-centric theory as fact and made it out that anyone who disagreed with him was an idiot. This is what got Galileo in trouble - being nasty and unfair and insulting people.

As it was, it was partially through the work of Jesuit scientists that Galileo's heliocentric theory was proved correct - and you should also keep in mind that Galileo was educated by Catholics...in short, his ability to do what he did was based upon the Catholic education he got as a young man.

You might want to actually learn something about religion before you comment on it in the future.

"the only proviso was that Galileo had to be fair to both sides of the debate"

Being fair to the wrong side is to say that it is wrong.

"This is what got Galileo in trouble - being nasty and unfair and insulting people."

You'd think he was printing a picture of mohammed.

Eppur si muove!

shortz,

Ah, still blindly following the liberal myths...perhaps some day you'll bestir yourself to actually find out what happened.

Its always better to know the truth, rather than just comfortable myths.

Ah, Islam...the "religion of peace". Freedom of speech is fundamental to democracy. We cannot have democracy without freedom of speech. Islam does not support freedom of speech. Islam is completely contrary to democracy.

Look at what the "tiny minority of Muslim extremists" are doing all over the world today in reaction to the Muhammad cartoons. The rxn is positively medieval....

"Danish consulate torched"
Sky News, by Staff

"Lebanese demonstrators have set fire to the Danish consulate in Beirut during protests over published cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed. It follows the torching of the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Syria and attacks on buildings belonging to Chile and Sweden. Thousands of people are taking part in Beirut protests."

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13502838,00.html
******************

"Cartoon rage spreads to New Zealand"
The Age (AU), by Barney Zwartz

"Twelve small drawings by obscure Danish cartoonists have set the Muslim world alight and sparked a global debate on the conflict between freedom of speech and religious tolerance.

New Zealand became the latest nation unwillingly drawn in at the weekend, after two newspapers ran the cartoons in a move likely to cost the country its $NZ100 million ($A92 million) sheep trade with Iran."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/02/05/1139074108606.html?from=top5
******************************

"Cartoons: Iraq ends contracts"
Associated Press, by Staff

"Baghdad, Iraq - The Iraqi transport ministry has decided to cancel its contracts with Danish firms and reject any offers of Danish reconstruction money to protest the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, the minister said on Sunday. Transport minister Salam al-Maliki said the decision would involve contracts in the fields of ports, aviation, rail and maritime transport.

"The ministry rejects receiving Danish donations for reconstruction as a form of protest for their act," he said. Al-Maliki is a supporter of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose organisation has been behind many of the protests in Iraq against the drawings, first published in Denmark and later reprinted elsewhere."

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1875585,00.html
******************

"Catholic priest shot dead in church in Turkey"

"Feb 5, 2006 — ANKARA (Reuters) - An Italian Roman Catholic priest was shot dead in his church in the Turkish Black Sea city of Trabzon on Sunday, police said.

They gave no more details, but CNN Turk television said police were looking for a young man aged about 17 years old seen fleeing the scene.[...] The state Anatolian news agency identified the dead man as Andrea Santaro, aged 60. Other Turkish media said he had been in Turkey about five years.

The gunman's motive was unclear. Turkey is overwhelmingly Muslim and has only a tiny Christian population. Turkey, like many other Muslim countries, has seen regular protests in recent days against cartoons published in several European newspapers depicting the Prophet Mohammad.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1582250

"Ah, still blindly following the liberal myths...perhaps some day you'll bestir yourself to actually find out what happened."

What are you referring to?

But the major problem is what does the church have to do with establishing scientific truth's about the material world? Theirs is the domain of myth. Let them have that, but leave nature to those that are able to accept what they see.

The Consequences of Sensitivity

(LGF)-"Stand back, because Mark Steyn is on fire: ‘Sensitivity’ can have brutal consequences."

One day, years from now, as archaeologists sift through the ruins of an ancient civilization for clues to its downfall, they’ll marvel at how easy it all was. You don’t need to fly jets into skyscrapers and kill thousands of people. As a matter of fact, that’s a bad strategy, because even the wimpiest state will feel obliged to respond. But if you frame the issue in terms of multicultural “sensitivity,” the wimp state will bend over backward to give you everything you want — including, eventually, the keys to those skyscrapers. Thus, Jack Straw, the British foreign secretary, hailed the “sensitivity” of Fleet Street in not reprinting the offending cartoons.

No doubt he’s similarly impressed by the “sensitivity” of Anne Owers, Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Prisons, for prohibiting the flying of the English national flag in English prisons on the grounds that it shows the cross of St. George, which was used by the Crusaders and thus is offensive to Muslims. And no doubt he’s impressed by the “sensitivity” of Burger King, which withdrew its ice cream cones from its British menus because Rashad Akhtar of High Wycombe complained that the creamy swirl shown on the lid looked like the word “Allah” in Arabic script. I don’t know which sura in the Koran says don’t forget, folks, it’s not just physical representations of God or the Prophet but also chocolate ice cream squiggly representations of the name, but ixnay on both just to be “sensitive.”

And doubtless the British foreign secretary also appreciates the “sensitivity” of the owner of France-Soir, who fired his editor for republishing the Danish cartoons. And the “sensitivity” of the Dutch film director Albert Ter Heerdt, who canceled the sequel to his hit multicultural comedy ”Shouf Shouf Habibi!” on the grounds that “I don’t want a knife in my chest” — which is what happened to the last Dutch film director to make a movie about Islam: Theo van Gogh, on whose ”right to dissent” all those Hollywood blowhards are strangely silent. Perhaps they’re just being “sensitive,” too.

And perhaps the British foreign secretary also admires the ”sensitivity" of those Dutch public figures who once spoke out against the intimidatory aspects of Islam and have now opted for diplomatic silence and life under 24-hour armed guard.

Noonan-

I have to laugh. Honestly. You provide an absurd argument- that the church never forces untrue dogma on anyone (an assailable position to say the least!) and then when I hand you your a$$, you actually look it up online to see if it is true.

When you check my facts, find out I'm right, you STILL try to spin it that somehow the Church is still a good group of sweethearts.

Give us a break. Yes, many scholars throughout history were in the clergy (still a big Voltaire fan though) but that has nothing to do with any of your other false beliefs.

I stand on my point. That religious dogma impedes the natural discovery of science. Therefore religious people are silly.

How can anyone read about the history of the Catholic church and still want to be a member of their club? Because you had a charismatic pope? Charisma is not righteousness.

Update: "Catholic Priest Shot, Killed at Church in Turkey"

(AP) ANKARA, Turkey — A teenage boy shot and killed the Italian Roman Catholic priest of a church in the Black Sea port city of Trabzon on Sunday, shouting “God is great” [“Allahu akbar!” —LGF ed.] as he escaped, according to police and witnesses.

Officers were searching for the boy aged around 14 or 15, according to a police official who declined to be identified because of rules that bar Turkish civil servants from speaking to journalists without prior authorization.

The police official would not say if the attack might be linked to the printing in European newspapers of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, which has caused anger in Muslim countries.
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Aust Muslims Warn Against Publishing Cartoons

Australian Broadcasting Corporation
by Staff

"There has been a warning from Australia's peak Muslim group that any publication in Australia of a Danish cartoon depicting the Prophet Mohammed could cause offence.[...]

The president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Dr Ameer Ali, says while the cartoon is yet to be published in Australia, the community is already aware of the issue.[...]Dr Ali says publishing the cartoon would cause too much offence.

"Which is more important - to preserve the freedom of speech or to antagonise one fifth of humanity," he said.

The warning comes as Queensland Muslims say they had hoped the state's largest newspaper would have had more sense than to publish one of the cartoons..
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Translation: If Australians adhere to their Western principles of Freedom of Expression, then Muslims will act violently.

Purple,

Had to refresh the memory - it has been a number of years since I had to deal with such infantile anti-Catholicism.

shortz,

Generic - you have Purple's rank anti-religious attitude, but you are more polite.

Infantile? Silliness merely implies a lack of reason and logic. The Catholic church does this every day- acts silly. Talking to the great Spaghetti Monster in the sky. Worshipping idols. Exorcism. Turning people that they burned at the stake into saints. You know...

Don't act like you're a victim, Mark. Calling a spade a spade, and especially with the Catholic church, needs to be done.

And before this, I wasn't even attacking Catholics- I just said that religious people are on a pleasant escape from logic.

But, I will say that at least the church is reforming- that's good. John Paul II was misled, but still a great man, and he worked consistently for world peace.

But one other BIG reform must be made. If the Church truly wants to help people, it needs to change it's position on birth control. A significant population of Africans can be saved the horror of AIDS if the church begins to advocate condom use.

it's interesting if you look up the history of the word silly - it used to mean 'pious'. a silly person was someone who practiced piety. gradually the word became more and more associated with foolishness. this semantic drift was probably not an accident.

natural science has met with astonishing success in increasing our knowledge and understanding of the natural world. religion has not been quite as successful i would argue. after Galieo and Kepler scientific knowledge began to grow with increasing rapidity.

the problem is this: a bad basic metaphysical conjecture which is at odds with the actual nature of the universe will lead to the adoption of an inappropriate set of methods and the result will be failure. for example religion makes the bad metaphysical assumption that the universe is controlled by a god or gods.

if we are convinced that things are controlled by gods in a world that is actually governed by some impersonal pattern of physical law our whole approach to improving our knowledge of and influence over natural processes will be wrong.

Andy,

Actually, the greater absurdity is to write a sentence which says that God does not exist...without God, you would not be able to write the sentence where you proclaim the non-existence of God. There is either a God, or everything is entirely deterministic - in such a case, what you wrote was pre-determined by everything that came before. You had no real hand in it but were merely doing what blind physiogical chance dictated.

Free will requires the existence of God...and so does thought.

Another thing to think of is that most of what you see is actually made up of nothing, held togther by forces we don't really comprehend at all.

the existence free-will is an empirical question, and i am confident that neuroscience and physics will eventually settle this question. conscious control of our actions may be one of those persistent illusions, like thinking the earth is flat, which science will dispell. it will still seem like we have control, just like when you stand somewhere on earth it still seems flat.

chaos theory for example provides a rigorous way to explain completely deterministic systems (the weather for example) which are inherently unpredictable over time. much the same way humans are, i would speculate. this is becuase our brains are likely non-linear dynamical systems. deterministic yet unpredictable. nobody really knows what the necessary and sufficient conditions for thought are yet, but god is not one of them.

Purple,

Geesh, but you are the tiresome one, aren't you?

So, the Church should abandon two thousand years of moral teaching and the clear injunction of God because you want to have a system in which people can continue to be irresponsible, and everyone else picks up the tab?

Do you ever even try to think about what you are saying? Or are you too self-absorbed to step outside your psudeo-intellectual BS?

Freedom1, thanks for the url to the story; but the last section of it seems to imply it's not the evils of Islam, in and of itself, but the evils of cultural isolationism and fundamentalism.

Feb 5, 2006 — ANKARA (Reuters) - An Italian Roman Catholic priest was shot dead in his church in the Turkish Black Sea city of Trabzon on Sunday, police said....

Turkish leaders have expressed strong distaste at the cartoons, but have also called for calm and better understanding between different cultures and religious faiths.

Turkey's non-Muslim clergy, including Istanbul-based Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, spiritual head of the world's Orthodox Christians, have also condemned the cartoons, which were first published in a Danish newspaper.

Violent attacks on Christian clergy are virtually unheard of in Turkey, which takes pride in its history as a meeting place of different cultures and religions.

Since we're talking about Turkey, let's look at the nation today as opposed to the way it was a century ago, under the Ottoman Empire (a Turkey of a very different feather! sorry, I couldn't resist). Throughout it's long history, Ottoman Empire was extremely aggressive (while they tried to invade Vienna, Mozart parodied Turkish music in an opera, a violin concerto, and a piano sonata) and, through the centuries, increasingly corrupt. When they joined Germany and Austria to form the Central Powers, they were at their moral low point. As WWI started, they began a policy of Armenian (Christian) genocide, killing between a million to 1.5 million Armenians. A German soldier in WWI was so impressed by the efficiency with which they did it, it became the model for his "Final Solution" when he took over Germany in 1933. My point is that modern Turkey, though still Islamic, is nothing like the Ottoman Empire in it's last years and hopefully it's sister nations will also become civilized, whatever their religion is.

Noonan-

I'm tiresome? I'm not the person who is helping to support what I believe to be the worst Prez in my lifetime (at least). He is, as I've said many times, a tyrant (one who usurps power from a constitution).

I'm tiresome? I'm not the person who is holding on to outdated dogma that has a huge negative effect on the world.

Absolutely the church should altogether disband. Faith should be a personal belief system, and there's nothing wrong with congregation, but that is far from the only thing that the church does. But if they decide to stick it out, then yes, they should change their stance on birth control because Africans still listen to Catholics, and it could save a lot of lives.

It's called reform.

You are a racist hick for continually spelling Moslem instead of Muslim. You damn well know this is the spelling used by colonial powers looking at Islam with disdain. And you also know Muslim do not like that spelling at all.

"So, the Church should abandon two thousand years of moral teaching and the clear injunction of God because you want to have a system in which people can continue to be irresponsible, and everyone else picks up the tab?"

So dubya's budget policy is godless? Who knew.

"self-absorbed" "psudeo-intellectual", interesting, even polite, invective. Christ was a threat to Rome because he refused to put Ceasar ahead of God. The recognition of a single God by Imhotep was the single most radical idea ever conceived by humankind. Peace

actually, john... while I usually use Muslim, because that's the common spelling, _I_ had no idea that the alternate was in any way offensive or had any history of disdain attached to it.

Just because you know of a situation does not mean you can assume that anyone else does, or that they're trying to offer offense.

(I meant that all of the quote would be in italics, sorry for the repeat...)

Freedom1, thanks for the url to the story; but the last section of it seems to imply it's not the evils of Islam, in and of itself, but the evils of cultural isolationism and fundamentalism.

Feb 5, 2006 — ANKARA (Reuters) - An Italian Roman Catholic priest was shot dead in his church in the Turkish Black Sea city of Trabzon on Sunday, police said....

Turkish leaders have expressed strong distaste at the cartoons, but have also called for calm and better understanding between different cultures and religious faiths.

Turkey's non-Muslim clergy, including Istanbul-based Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, spiritual head of the world's Orthodox Christians, have also condemned the cartoons, which were first published in a Danish newspaper.

Violent attacks on Christian clergy are virtually unheard of in Turkey, which takes pride in its history as a meeting place of different cultures and religions.

Since we're talking about Turkey, let's look at the nation today as opposed to the way it was a century ago, under the Ottoman Empire (a Turkey of a very different feather! sorry, I couldn't resist). Throughout it's long history, Ottoman Empire was extremely aggressive (while they tried to invade Vienna, Mozart parodied Turkish music in an opera, a violin concerto, and a piano sonata) and, through the centuries, increasingly corrupt. When they joined Germany and Austria to form the Central Powers, they were at their moral low point. As WWI started, they began a policy of Armenian (Christian) genocide, killing between a million to 1.5 million Armenians. A German soldier in WWI was so impressed by the efficiency with which they did it, it became the model for his "Final Solution" when he took over Germany in 1933. My point is that modern Turkey, though still Islamic, is nothing like the Ottoman Empire in it's last years and hopefully it's sister nations will also become civilized, whatever their religion is.

They seem (Islam/Muslims) to be able to "dish it out", but in turn, become so offended by some idiotic cartoon. Geezsh, should everyone have gone balistic, when their papers printed cartoons
about Sharon being a slaughterer, and other ones,
where they disparage the Jewish people? They are
"so offended, yet they were not so offended, when
some of their own, killed/gassed thousands of Kurds, killed children and women for being just that, women and children-unable to defend themselves against the maiming, killing and rapes,
by some of their 'righteous, religious leaders'...

If they want to use some stupid cartoons, as a means of continuing to act like savages, and call for the 'beheading of anyone who disagrees with
Islam, or whatever'....they should clean up their
own treachery and behavior that makes them look like savages, who don't give one damn about the rest of the world being 'different from them', and
they want to "convert all to Islam/Muslims...where
is their respect for all other believers" They
appear in their outrage, to be hypocrits. All this bullsh.. over "religion...let's get to the real reason...They HATE anything other than their
radical beliefs, and carry out its teachings literally, where "Killing infidels(those who don't
believe as they do-is A-okay"...They should realize, there are others, who aren't buying their
two-faced, hypocrital, behavior-

"My point is that modern Turkey, though still Islamic, is nothing like the Ottoman Empire in it's last years and hopefully it's sister nations will also become civilized, whatever their religion is." Posted by: Robert K Meyer Jr

Agreed. Modern Turkey has come a very long way from its past. However, this teenage murderer shouted “God is great” as he escaped. The evidence suggests that the motive for this murder of the Catholic priest really was the "evils of Islam".

My overriding point is that neither Turkey, nor any other Muslim nation can ever be civilized until that nation rejects and renounces Islam. Islam is a tyrannical and evil force. As long as Islam is present in a population, that population will suffer under Islam's tyranny and Shari'a law.

All of the nations of the world must reject and renounce Islam.

First of all...learn to spell buddy, before making such opinions. Its MUSLIM, geeze....the ignorance. How can i even value your opinion when you are so uneducated that your grammer and spelling are that of grade school kids. Anyways, I dont believe that anyone has the right to make fun of ANY religion. You might not think that it is a big deal to draw a picture of mohammed, but to them it is a big deal. It is an insult. I hope you can try to identify with that fact that making fun of any holy figure is WRONG, and it should not be brushed off as OK. It is not....freedom of speech should not be abused in such a way. I do not agree with their retaliation either....but i do not feel as if the cartoon was quite rude, and actually provoking.

As far as renouncing Islam? Umm....there are over a billion muslims in the world, and 99% of them practice good faith, and have very good moral grounds in their lives. The radicals you see on television are not a good representation of the either faith. That was a very ignorant comment to make. Telling people to reject their faith. Who are you to make such an opinion. As long as people are leading happy, peaceful lives...i do not think change should be forced upon them. That was a disrespectful comment to make..im appauled.